Discussion: Japanese colonization of (pre-Columbian) America

Maybe the Ainu introduce cold-resistant crops to them for some reason and they turn into small state societies, why the hell not.

Some of the local polities were fairly large and the combination of ridiculously abundant salmon fishing and forest gardening could sustain populations as large as anything the Ainu ever developed.

It's never a bad thing to add to your production base/argipackage, but I doubt it will be as decisive as you might think.

And of course, the local nations built some really large boats as well that were capable of raiding up and down the coast quite some distance.
 
Surely any sustained two way relationship led by Japan to the western coast would initiate disease transfer in much the same way that it happened from the eastern coast?
 
Some of the local polities were fairly large
They were most definitely smaller on a larger scale of things. Most PNW polities were hardly even big complex chiefdoms in the larger scale, seeing as we have immense ones in the American East.

and the combination of ridiculously abundant salmon fishing and forest gardening could sustain populations as large as anything the Ainu ever developed.
Salmon fishing is not sustainable for larger populations as agriculture is. I do not believe there are any state societies that were not agricultural (and yes, pastoralism is a form of agriculture).

It's never a bad thing to add to your production base/argipackage, but I doubt it will be as decisive as you might think.
No, I think iron+crops will be more decisive in the PNW than New World crops were in Zomia or the New Guinean Highlands. Just think about how productive grain-based agriculture is in terms of sustaining a larger population (I won't deny that agriculture is very rarely beneficial for the individual, but in conflict it's the collective that matters). Just think about the societal changes that sweet potato (more productive than taro) brought about in New Guinea. ETA: this included, for example, emergence of a class system, less warfare, reduced cult activity, increase in intertribal marriage, and a complete economic restructuring in which the generally accepted currency began to shift to pearlshells rather than pigs.

Also, AFAIK the PNWers wouldn't be adding to their agripackage. They would be making one anew, because unlike the Gunditjmara in Aborigine their salmon harvests weren't aquaculturally induced.


And of course, the local nations built some really large boats as well that were capable of raiding up and down the coast quite some distance.
Don't deny this, but PNW activity was much more limited.
 
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I'm not sure a successful Mongol conquest would be necessary. You could have a series of Emperors or Shoguns who adopt a deliberate policy of encouraging long-distance trade; then, however long a period of time afterwards, some Japanese government official says "Hey, I wonder if there are any resources to the north that might be good for trading?" and arranges to have an exploratory fleet sent off.

A Taira Shogunate might do the trick, IMO. Taira no Kiyomori tried to strengthen trade with the Song dynasty by building the port city of Fukuhara (present-day Kobe). His successors are very likely to continue this policy, and even expand further.

Ainu "colonization" and possible East Asia-America trade through an Ainu medium is far, far more plausible than Japanese colonization.

I also have a similar scenario in my "proactive Japan" idea, where the Ainu are vassalized by the Japanese and acts as their representatives/middlemen in the northeast trade.
 
Ainu "colonization" and possible East Asia-America trade through an Ainu medium is far, far more plausible than Japanese colonization.

Heh, maybe I should make a timeline about that.

Not really possible, the Ainu were basically colonized by the Japanese in Hokkaido by the Kakizaki/Matsumae clan and weren't used as middle men. Although that they did get special trading privileges. I don't even think you can Japanese colonization by a state, that requires at tad too much interest that wasn't there, at least not without some butterfly's and a fair deal of changes. That's why I'm considering having Japanese Christians piggyback of the Spanish New World, and settle there.
 
The Japanese did trade with Koreans and Chinese.

The Chinese wanted furs, which iirc they got from the Russians (later) and probably Manchus or someone earlier. If Japan extends north for whatever reason, the fur trade (carried on ship, which is MUCH cheaper than overland) might make it well worth continuing.

Spread slowly up Kamchatka, as suggested above (probably only trading posts there, but still), then the Kommandorskis and the Aleutians then....
 
Alternatively, you could have first contact go the other way. Have Alaskan natives make it to Japan and pique Japanese interest in exploring out that way. I think ocean currents would favor Alaskan sailors making it to Asia rather than vise versa.

Whaling could also be a motivator for the Japanese to explore much farther afield than they did in OTL.

Once they have established contact with the West Coast of North America, I could see them setting up trading posts similar to the Russians. That might gradually lead to large permanent settlements but not necessarily soon enough to hold the territory from European/US expansion.
 
To my knowledge, the chiefdom societies of the Pacific Northwest were not truly agricultural, but they did cultivate wild tobacco on a small scale. I wonder if this could spread to Asia early on.
 
I'm interested in getting Japanese "kirishitans" on the California coast by the mid-XVIII century. Could an invasion by an European power seeking to strike the Dutch/VOC trade during the War of Austrian Succession work?
 
I'm interested in getting Japanese "kirishitans" on the California coast by the mid-XVIII century. Could an invasion by an European power seeking to strike the Dutch/VOC trade during the War of Austrian Succession work?

I don't think so, by then the Kirishitans would have been driven underground, I was thinking more of getting them involved with western trade or at least some expiditions and maybe have some go westward, but I'm not too sure on how they adapt to very racialized environment that was the Spanish American. Then there's also where would they settle and what crops would be grown.
 
Double movement

Would a double movement do it for you? Have a colony of persecuted Japanese, move to the Philippines, initially to an area where the Spanish aren't, then facing Spanish encroachment they move on to America? a bit like the Scots-Irish or the Pilgrims.
 
Would a double movement do it for you? Have a colony of persecuted Japanese, move to the Philippines, initially to an area where the Spanish aren't, then facing Spanish encroachment they move on to America? a bit like the Scots-Irish or the Pilgrims.
If the persecuted Japanese are moving to the Philippines, they will almost certainly end up fleeing to places where the Spanish already are, both because that's where most of the good places are, and because the Spanish would probably welcome at least some of them as semi-reliable Christian subjects to help pacify the area (there was at least one group of Tlaxcalans imported to the Philippines for this reason). Indeed, at least a few Catholic Japanese nobles did end up in the Philippines.

Moving from there to the Americas is more difficult, however; the Spanish tended to be very strict on who they allowed to immigrate, and Japanese refugees seem unlikely.
 
If the persecuted Japanese are moving to the Philippines, they will almost certainly end up fleeing to places where the Spanish already are, both because that's where most of the good places are, and because the Spanish would probably welcome at least some of them as semi-reliable Christian subjects to help pacify the area (there was at least one group of Tlaxcalans imported to the Philippines for this reason). Indeed, at least a few Catholic Japanese nobles did end up in the Philippines.

Moving from there to the Americas is more difficult, however; the Spanish tended to be very strict on who they allowed to immigrate, and Japanese refugees seem unlikely.

Well, during that time, thr Spanish sought to develop California, so they might see an opportunity here.
 
Assuming the Japanese managed to build some settlements around northwest America, which Native American tribe will make first contact with them?
 
Assuming the Japanese managed to build some settlements around northwest America, which Native American tribe will make first contact with them?

Depends which part. Probably an Athabaskan or Salishan-speaking group, since they inhabited the best coastal sites on that part of the coast. Maybe the Aleut if they first land in the Aleutian Islands.
 
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