Discussion: How Would You End The Great War

Forget it. German nationalism was way too strong fpr anything of the kind to be possible.

The only way to have two Germanies is by one of them to be artificially propped up by foreign occupiers (like the GDR later) and doomed to collapse as soon as the foreign occupiers leave. Otherwise no point in even talking about it.
The issue with Germany, as it stands, is that it needs to be hobbled somehow to avoid the possibility of a conquering spree afterwards.
Either you take one of its main industrial basins away (Silesia to Czechoslovakia/Poland, or Inter-Allied Rhineland ?), either you reduce significantly its territorial extent and demographic pull (ie remove the three South German states and MAYBE Hannover) to shrink its manpower base, either you put army limits.

The first leaves at least one of the potential targets of Germany with a very significant and restive German minority, the second leaves multiple German countries outside North Germany's borders which may just reunite or ally out of convenience, and the third needs to be enforced.
It isn't easy, since on the medium-term only continental powers (esp. France) have an interest in keeping Germany down.
 
The issue with Germany, as it stands, is that it needs to be hobbled somehow to avoid the possibility of a conquering spree afterwards.
Does it?

WWI got going from Austria and Serbia Mobilizing, with Russia following, that brought in the Germans to mobilize, and then the French.

The Germans attacked France, because they thought they could do better than 1870 and a quick knockout, and then to turn on Russia before they could steamroller A-H

With the end of the Great War, all the empires, save the British, are shattered.

a repeat of a huge alliance system pulling in everyone over a minor Balkan conflict is unlikely.

Imperial Germany, while wanting 'a place in the Sun' were not looking to conquer all of Europe, like thier Sons tried 25 years later
 
Above all else, I would make the British keep their promises to the various middle eastern groups they allied with.
 
How long will those ruling families hold power with a Fascist or Communist uprising sweeping the German states? How long will the People of America be willing to be the policeman for an exhausted France and England who have had to fight to Berlin to impose this insane treaty? The Same America who couldn't WAIT to get out of the Continent? The answer to both is "Not Long".

You make so many wrong assumptions and then you escalate based on these wrong assumptions. Everything you write is wrong.

This is how it is going to be

There are going to be people who will collaborate with any power to increase their own standard of living.

People who have ambition and ability are going to try to become the ruling family and spend their energy on that. The masters will support any family that can deliver what the masters want. Which is wealth extraction and no unification. So people with ability will spend their time and energy back stabbing each other and trying to become the new royal family.

It is very difficult to go against a monarchy who has control of the state. Any group of trouble makers will have to overcome working against the whole state. The monarchy will ally itself with local people who want to keep how things are, these people will be given power.

In most cases the local authorities are going to be able to handle any trouble makers. And most people will just go about their lives trying to make a living.

To unify 100 different countries is going to be very very hard if not impossible especially when each country has a local power base that has no interest in it and all the interest of keeping the status quo.

Just look at Syria today, you have one ruling family or look at many colonial “countries” during the 1900s when they were under the influence of foreigners. Same thing but just closer now.
 
Ah, yes, the peace where France lost Catalonia, Liguria, Tuscany, the Latium, Piedmont, Savoy, the Rhineland, Belgium, and Dalmatia ? The peace where the European powers set up three large buffer states to border France and remained allied with each other for over thirty years to make sure France would not come after them again ? That "lenient" peace ?

France had lost virtually all of those territories on the battlefield (the same way she got them a few years earlier) before the peace was ever signed. Was there any particular reason for the victors to gave them back? Should Germany, in 1918, have been allowed to keep Belgium because she had possessed it for the last four years?

All the territories Germany lost in 1919 (colonies aside) were ones that had belonged to her since she was united in 1871 - 47 years before the Armistice (and in the case of the eastern border even longer).
The 1815 equivalent would be for France to be stripped of territory she had held 47 years before Waterloo, ie since 1768. Was any such territory taken from her?

As for buffer states, what was unjust about that? Over the last 20 years or so France had run around setting up puppet republics and/or kingdoms wherever it suited her rulers' fancy. Why should the Allies not have done the same? None of these states were formed from historically French territory.
 
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-Thrace and Constantinople to Greece. Turkish government is given five years to leave Constantinople to build up the new capitol
So Greece will be in war with both Turkey and Bulgaria, since neither would accept such conditions.

-However, Austria retains Bohemia.
Whose army is going to suppress the already created Czechoslovak republic?
 
France loves Germany so much it must have 3 of them.
  • Combine Austria and Bavaria and call it Bastria.
  • Split North Germany at the Elbe. This is where Western Europe will end. This will be called Germany.
  • Combine Prussia, Czechoslovakia and Hungary together. Proslovungary! Put the Hungarians in charge.
Put all the Education departments under English control for a generation.

No reparations.
 
France loves Germany so much it must have 3 of them.
  • Combine Austria and Bavaria and call it Bastria.
  • Split North Germany at the Elbe. This is where Western Europe will end. This will be called Germany.
  • Combine Prussia, Czechoslovakia and Hungary together. Proslovungary! Put the Hungarians in charge.
Put all the Education departments under English control for a generation.

No reparations.


France would never forego the reparations.

Britain wouldn't want the job.

You need to be looking for a treaty that takes less effort to enforce, not more. The problem witht he ToV wasn't being too hard or too easy on Germany - it was requiring more effort to enforce than war-weary victors would ever be prepared to make.
 
I’m not actually advocating this, but it might be interesting if Alsace-Lorraine and the Saarland were combined into a single French- German buffer state.
 
Call a second Congress of Vienna. The only way out is an honorable peace for all sides involved.

Let Germany lose AlsLor and all her coloniespay large indemnities to the Entente + arms limitations. The earlier Treaty with Russia is kept.

AH really does not matter nor does OE.

The main point of this is to keep the spirit of diplomacy between the nation's, that it was a war between people and not nations. The sitting governments must save face, as such to speak as a collective whole can help re tie Europe together.
 
The best way to ensure that there is no revanchist Germany is to make sure Germany is not humiliated b the peace. I would do the following
  • Make sure the settlement is an actual negotiation, not a dictated peace.
  • Adopt most of the OTL German counter Proposal, with additional referendums in Schleswig-Holstein.
  • Make the League of Nations an actual defensive alliance, to prevent wars via collective action, not asking nicely.
  • Half the amount of reparations.
Hopefully this way, there is no need for a revanchist Germany in the late 30s, as they had an honorable peace.
 

trajen777

Banned
Ok -- you need a stable German gov + a weakened Russia for Peace

1. Treaty of BL in place -- take Baltic states and add to Germany (has German land - Pop expansion - keeps them eastward focused
2. Take Bavaria + Austria + Chek republic as new country
3. No German land to Poland -- Have Poland expand south east in comp land from Russia
4. All colones gone from Germany
5. German army capped equal to France -- 25% of Brit Navy - No subs
6. German French Brit alliance to establish a status quo -- an association of these nations (think mini EU or united nations of Europe) with conflict resolution process -- and forward planning together.
7. Strong German constitution and checks and balances (ala USA ) between house / Senate / Congress --- so the dominance of one party to control their Parliament does not include the President also (split power in the branches most of the time)
8. Population transfers of Germans back to Germany -- etc
9 Create co dependence of economies so it is very difficult to create war against each other
10 Return German commercial fleet -- rep to Belgium and France (not crippling)

So you have a weaker Russia -- a north and south German state --- a reason to find econ balances between nations
 
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