Discussion: How Would You End The Great War

[AltoRegnant]

Versailles, and more importantly, the reaction to it, are some of the key points of the twentieth century. Your goal, with ASBs enforcing your wishes, is to rewrite Versailles and the other treaties of the war to limit the likelyhood of a second great war.
Note: obviously these countries peaced out in seperate treaties, but it makes sense to just list off the treaties in one post
My Take
Ottomans/Turkey:
-Oil Profits off to Britain and France for ten years
-Thrace and Constantinople to Greece. Turkish government is given five years to leave Constantinople to build up the new capitol
-Recognize Syria as part of the United Kingdom of Arabia. Iraq is allowed to have a referendum, as the UKA has significant access to the Red Sea and Indian Ocean regardless,

Austria
-Croatian coast goes to Italy per their promised land
-Hungary becomes independent as a republic (but retain their crown lands)
-Remaining Adriatic Land goes to Serbia ala OTL Yugoslavia
-However, Austria retains Bohemia
-Both Austrian and Hungarian Governments give the entente (-russia) war reparations totalling 15 Billion USD
-Austria will accept guilt over the war

Germany
-Poland gains the land it did per otl
-Germany cedes Alcass-Lorraine to France
-Germany loses South West Africa to Britain
-Germany cedes the northern half of German Cameroon to France
-However, it will gain the northern third of the Belgian Congo, so long as the following nations could obtain resources from it: the United Kingdom, France, Italy, and The United States of America
-Will cede German East Asian Islands to Japan

 

[Catspoke]

That's pretty tricky for Germany to keep some colonies while giving up Posen and the cooridor. Almost need Britain hobbled while France remains strong. Maybe an easy front first strategy that ends in Russian revolution but undamaged France wins. Interesting though.

 

[AltoRegnant]

That's pretty tricky for Germany to keep some colonies while giving up Posen and the cooridor. Almost need Britain hobbled while France remains strong. Maybe an easy front first strategy that ends in Russian revolution but undamaged France wins. Interesting though.

Admittedly i wasn't really thinking in terms of how this came about, more 'would this treaty be enough to keep the anger at otl's versailles away and thus no nazis.'

 

[Bavarian Raven]

Let Germany keep her prewar territory in europe, while guaranteeing a rump poland from Russianlands. Most German colonies given up in compensation.
Break up AH - Austria and German lands to Germany, Hungary independent, and minority areas divided up to surrounding nations.
Ottomons loose none core territories. Independence to "Freed" regions, guaranteed by other powers.

All i can think of atm.

 

[Creepy]

Dismember Germany and the Ottomans, leave Austria-Hungery to collapse

 

[Catspoke]

otl treaty of Versailles works well, however reparations should be at Germany's 1913 military budget annually for 20 years, as well as more straight forward plebiscite rules, don't talk about guilt clauses. Gets around the thorny issues but preserves the allied victory.

 

[Legault]

Turkey
-Directly the treaty of Lausanne, population transfer are supervised to avoid needless deaths
-Syria's Alauistan is given to Italy to compensate its loss of influence in Turkey, France gets Lebanon, rest of Syria and western Iraq (partitioned according to religion)


Austria
-Independent Hungary, Czechia and Slovakia
-Southern Sudetenland is retained by Austria but the rest is given to Czechia and has its German population resettled, compensation will be given by Czechia within 4 years.
-More favorable treaty toward Hungary which get slightly more land in southern Slovakia and Transylvania (not to the extant of the Hungary of Horty in 41 though), population exchange are realized to limit enclaves of minorities.
-Dalmatia is ceded to Italy additionally to the territories ceded IOTL.
-Bosnia and Slavonia are given to Serbia
-Union with Germany is prohibited

Germany
-No war guilt clause
-Germany will be occupied and land liberated proportionally to the reparation paid (big ASB), this will include the colonies excluding Asian pacific islands and German east Africa. The reparation are settled to 20 * military expense of Germany in 1913. During its occupation Germany sees its army restricted but those are lifted after the war. Germany can keep one quarter of its surface fleet. To preserve peace, Germany has to be able to rejoin the concert of nations after some times and be a great power once more.
-Alsace Moselle is ceded to France
-Eastern Prussia is cede to Poland instead of Western Prussia, population exchange again, plebiscite in Silesia.

 

[Thomas1195]

otl treaty of Versailles works well, however reparations should be at Germany's 1913 military budget annually for 20 years, as well as more straight forward plebiscite rules, don't talk about guilt clauses. Gets around the thorny issues but preserves the allied victory.

Yeah, and we simultaneously dish out both proto-Operation Paperclip (will be credited to reduce monetary reparation) and a Northern/Western Europe trade bloc (which would also include Czech). The trade bloc would place heavy emphasis on breaking down German agricultural tariffs to break up Bismarck's alliance of iron and rye. The proto-Operation Paperclip would involve grabbing German patents and intelectual properties, compensated by reduction in monetary reparation from OTL level to 1913 or 1914 German military budget.

 

[Thomas1195]

Filling up Kiel Canal: this would deal a giant pain in the ass for future German naval planners.

 

[Thomas1195]

Italy getting what they were promised in 1915: Fiume + Trieste.

Austria-Hungary: same as OTL, but with war-guilt clause, perhaps Hungary losing fewer lands.

Ottoman: Sykes-Picot fully imposed. I don't see nasty consequences from screwing the Ottoman Empire. The giant elephant in the room is Germany.

Germany: let's screw Poland a little bit so no Polish corridor. France would get A-L as OTL. My plan for reparation had been mentioned above.

 

[A Piece of History]

- Germany

• France gets Alsace-Lorraine back
• No War Guilt Clause
• War criminals to be handed over for trial.
• All territory east of Breslau becomes part of Poland, including East Prussia.
• No limits on manpower, military organization, weapons or military branches (In OTL, they were getting around the ban on a General Staff through the creation of the 'Troop Office', they were testing tanks in the Soviet Union and in 1934, the Reichswehr had a manpower numbering 300,000, so what is the point on forcing limits on their military?)
• All German colonies will be confiscated

- Austria-Hungary

• Austria gets a referendum on becoming part of Germany.
• All German-speaking areas within the Empire bordering Germany will have the same referendum
• War Guilt Clause for Austria, since it was Franz Josef, a Austrian, who signed the declaration of war on Serbia.
• Italy gets all territory it was promised in 1915
• No war crimes trials. (As much as I want people to pay for the war crimes committed against Serbia, the post-war chaos would make that almost impossible)
• Czechoslovakia would not exist as one country, but two. Czechia and Slovakia.
• Galicia is given to Poland

- Ottoman Empire

• War crimes trials, especially for the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide
• A Kurdish state in southern Anatolia
• Armenia will be granted the territory promised to it in OTL in the Treaty of Sevres
• A sovereign Arab state known as the Arab Kingdom of Syria (the territory will consist of modern Syria as well as Lebanon, Israel, and Palestine, the western chunk of Jordan). The area around Jerusalem will become a international city under League of Nations protection ala Danzig in OTL.
• The areas making up OTL Iraq will be partitioned into separate nations, depending on the demographics of Sunnis vs Shias
• The Hejaz region will be annexed into Egypt
• Najd will be partitioned between the British and French

 

[History Learner]

What I would do differently is adopt the German counter-proposal of May 29, which was extremely fair to all involved and would actually ensure a just peace. As far as borders go:

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

France gets Alsace-Lorraine back

Italy gets all territory it was promised in 1915

If Austria gets to decide which country it will belong to in the future, this right should be a fortiori granted to Elsaß-Lothringen and South Tyrol. Especially the latter will most likely decide to remain with Austria, as it has no ethnic or historic connection to Italy whatsoever.

A referendum in Elsaß-Lothringen might be a toss-up, though. On the one hand, you have the recent humiliations by German occupation forces and the old ties to France; on the other hand, by 1914, most inhabitants of Elsaß-Lothringen identified as Germans, and German cultural policies were much more liberal than French ones. Also, the position of the Church was a different one in imperial Germany compared to laicist France. So it could go both ways, and asking the people is really the best option you have to find a sensibel solution (in contrast to French policy which just assumed that Elsaß-Lothringen was French and wanted to return under French rule).

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

What I would do differently is adopt the German counter-proposal of May 29, which was extremely fair to all involved and would actually ensure a just peace. As far as borders go:

The German proposal involved a plebiscite in the west and also in Schleswig (the map doesn't mentions the latter one); it also wanted to reserve to Austria an option to join Germany.

 

[History Learner]

The German proposal involved a plebiscite in the west and also in Schleswig (the map doesn't mentions the latter one); it also wanted to reserve to Austria an option to join Germany.

Map isn't from the same source, it's just what I consider a good idea for a Post-Peace border. Largely ethnographic, although Schleswig stays in as a whole thanks to Danish neutrality.

 

[Mikestone8]

Let Germany keep her prewar territory in europe, while guaranteeing a rump poland from Russianlands. Most German colonies given up in compensation.
Break up AH - Austria and German lands to Germany, Hungary independent, and minority areas divided up to surrounding nations.
Ottomons loose none core territories. Independence to "Freed" regions, guaranteed by other powers.

Please, no worthless "guarantees" which the victors will be too war-weary to enforce.

Does "German lands" include the German-majority areas of Bohemia and Moravia? Probably should, but will the victors buy it?

Otherwise no major gripes.

 

[NiGHTS]

I can see this going very wrong super fast.

 

[Pera]

It strikes me again how people micromanage to find an equitable solution for Germany but thoughtlessly draw borders in the Balkans giving predominantly Croat areas to Serbia and Italy. What could possibly go wrong ?

 

[Legault]

It strikes me again how people micromanage to find an equitable solution for Germany but thoughtlessly draw borders in the Balkans giving predominantly Croat areas to Serbia and Italy. What could possibly go wrong ?

If Italy, Germany or France are pissed off, it's going to be an issue, if Serbia, Greece or Hungary are screwed, who cares, without a major they are not going to start a world war. The situation is comparable to the peace of Vienna in 1815 where the minors didn't have much to say. My first aim is to avoid ww2, and only secondarily only to make a fair deal.

 

[von Adler]

otl treaty of Versailles works well, however reparations should be at Germany's 1913 military budget annually for 20 years, as well as more straight forward plebiscite rules, don't talk about guilt clauses. Gets around the thorny issues but preserves the allied victory.

The Versailles treaty payments that were actually instituted counted for about 2% of the German GDP or 10% of their yearly revenue, while the 1913 military budget was a bit over 4% of GDP. If the Germans had the political will, they could make the Versailles payments - the problem was that they would rather ruin their own economy with the hyper-inflation than pay up.