Discussion: Comparing British and German industries 1900-1940

Thomas1195

Banned
Which Britain broke!?
(Not just Enigma, Room 40 routinely had the technical means to read the High Seas Fleet's communications).
For which building the world's first computer is somehow not precision electronic engineering?
Signals Intelligence was an area in which Britain excelled in both wars.
Well, the advantage of Enigma was that it could be mass produced for the whole German army on battlefield.

The first computer, although mechanical, was made by Konrad Zuse in Germany.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
The industrial and technological situation for Britain was worse before ww1. You know, they didn't have a clue about how to produce magnetos and ball bearings. They lacked the essential skills and expertise to do so.
 
Well, the advantage of Enigma was that it could be mass produced for the whole German army on battlefield.

The first computer, although mechanical, was made by Konrad Zuse in Germany.
I don't know if the British equivalent to Enigma, Type X, could be mass produced, but AFAIK the Germans were never able to break it.

If I am right about the above it means that Type X might not have been fit for mass production, but it was fit for purpose, unlike Enigma.
 
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Thomas1195

Banned
I don't know if the British equivalent to Enigma, Type X, could be mass produced, but AFAIK the Germans were never able to break it.

If I am right about the above it means that Type X might not have been fit for mass production, but it was fit for purpose, unlike Enigma.
Actually, Britain did not break it alone, it had to work with Poland and France, and the early efforts were mostly done by the Poles.

Type X was bulky, while the more portable version was weaker.
 

hipper

Banned
The industrial and technological situation for Britain was worse before ww1. You know, they didn't have a clue about how to produce magnetos and ball bearings. They lacked the essential skills and expertise to do so.

Magnetos were produced in the UK before 1914 you keep making false statements
 

Oh it is the massively qualified statements game, not the precisely qualified statements game either which would have been more laudable. The issue which you have skipped over is that the firm of Thomas-Bennet was acquired by Lucus which raised production from 1,500 hundred units to 100,000 by the war's end. In other words the British had not wasted money supplying something the Germans could supply more cheaply but retained the capacity to expand in the event of interruption of supply.

Your weakness sounds like a strength :confused:
 
Actually, Britain did not break it alone, it had to work with Poland and France, and the early efforts were mostly done by the Poles.
I have known that for at least 15 years when I saw the display at the Imperial War Museum and read newspaper articles.

I wasn't writing that the British broke it alone in the first place, but making the point that Enigma was broken and Type X was not.
Type X was bulky, while the more portable version was weaker.
British bulk and fragile producing UNDECIPHERABLE messages v German more portable producing DECIPHERABLE messages = British Type X fit for purpose v German Enigma waste of time.

I don't know, but strongly suspect that the features that make Type X bulky and less portable also made it harder to decipher.

This is from the Wikipaedia article on Type X.
All the versions of the Typex had advantages over the German military versions of the Enigma machine. The German equivalent teleprinter machines in World War II (used by higher-level but not field units) were the Lorenz SZ 40 and Siemens and Halske T52 using Fish cyphers.
  • Most versions of the Enigma required two operators to operate effectively—one operator to input text into the Enigma and the other to copy down the enciphered or deciphered characters—Typex required just one operator.
  • Typex avoided operator copying errors, as the enciphered or deciphered text was automatically printed on paper tape.
  • Unlike Enigma, Typex I machines were linked to teleprinters while Typex II machines could be if required.
  • Enigma messages had to be written, enciphered, transmitted (by Morse), received, deciphered, and written again, while Typex messages were typed and automatically enciphered and transmitted all in one step, with the reverse also true.
Sounds like a useful piece of kit to me.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Oh it is the massively qualified statements game, not the precisely qualified statements game either which would have been more laudable. The issue which you have skipped over is that the firm of Thomas-Bennet was acquired by Lucus which raised production from 1,500 hundred units to 100,000 by the war's end. In other words the British had not wasted money supplying something the Germans could supply more cheaply but retained the capacity to expand in the event of interruption of supply.

Your weakness sounds like a strength :confused:
Thanks to Mr Lloyd George. I mean Ministry of Munition, which directed war industries. Before the ministry was formed, British war industries were like a joke
 
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Thanks to Mr Lloyd George. I mean Ministry of Munition, which directed war industries. Before the ministry was formed, British war industries were like a joke
It depends upon the war industries.

The Naval War industry was a lot more capable than the Military War industry before 1914. However, much of that can be put down to having the biggest navy in the world for the former and a small army for a great power for the latter. Therefore the joke was on the Great British Public for its fear of large standing armies in peacetime rather than Britain's industrialists. They made the supply match the demand.
 
Thanks to Mr Lloyd George. I mean Ministry of Munition, which directed war industries. Before the ministry was formed, British war industries were like a joke

Almost as though the country had not been involved in a major continental war since the Napoleonic period?

Perhaps it needed a strong autocratic ruler who could get things done, and brush aside the concerns of the people for the greater good?
 

Thomas1195

Banned
It depends upon the war industries.

The Naval War industry was a lot more capable than the Military War industry before 1914. However, much of that can be put down to having the biggest navy in the world for the former and a small army for a great power for the latter. Therefore the joke was on the Great British Public for its fear of large standing armies in peacetime rather than Britain's industrialists. They made the supply match the demand.
Well, steel, machine tools, ball bearings, magnetos, electrical and electromechanical, and even chemical were needed by both naval and army industry. You need steel to build ships and guns, machine tools and ball bearings for general industrial production, communication equipment (electrical industry), chemical for dye and ammunition (both conventional and weapons).

You know, British steel production before and during ww1 was insufficient to meet overall demand, and thus had to rely on American imports. If their steel output was 16 million in 1914 instead of 8 mil (assume that this was due to double productivity instead of double labour force), they and France could have saved a big chunk of foreign reserves, because 16 million per year would be enough to supply British domestic production and export to France.
 
Well, steel, machine tools, ball bearings, magnetos, electrical and electromechanical, and even chemical were needed by both naval and army industry. You need steel to build ships and guns, machine tools and ball bearings for general industrial production, communication equipment (electrical industry), chemical for dye and ammunition (both conventional and weapons).

You know, British steel production before and during ww1 was insufficient to meet overall demand, and thus had to rely on American imports. If their steel output was 16 million in 1914 instead of 8 mil (assume that this was due to double productivity instead of double labour force), they and France could have saved a big chunk of foreign reserves, because 16 million per year would be enough to supply British domestic production and export to France.
Also German peacetime army 98 divisions, French peacetime army 72 divisions (IIRC), Austria-Hungary 48 divisions (IIRC), even Italy 24 Divisions. UK 6 divisions plus the 14 TF divisions with obsolete weapons dating from the Boer War. It took time to reorganise British industry to support an army of 70 divisions equipped with modern weapons.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Also German peacetime army 98 divisions, French peacetime army 72 divisions (IIRC), Austria-Hungary 48 divisions (IIRC), even Italy 24 Divisions. UK 6 divisions plus the 14 TF divisions with obsolete weapons dating from the Boer War. It took time to reorganise British industry to support an army of 70 divisions equipped with modern weapons.
This was not relevant to the production of capital goods like steel and machine tools.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
It is relevant to your claim that before the formation of the Ministry of Munitions the British munitions industry was a joke. That was why I wrote it.
Because British steel and machine tools (capital goods) production were vastly inferior to Germany, their main foe, and was insufficient to meet demand. It had to import more from the US and Sweden to make good of the shortages in these products.

E.g.
Steel production in 1913:
UK: 8 million tons
Germany: 16 million tons.
 
Because British steel and machine tools (capital goods) production were vastly inferior to Germany, their main foe, and was insufficient to meet demand. It had to import more from the US and Sweden to make good of the shortages in these products.

E.g.
Steel production in 1913:
UK: 8 million tons
Germany: 16 million tons.


Discussion: Comparing British and German industries 1900-1940

Discussion: Comparing British and German industries 1900-1940

As noted previously German machine tools were cheap knock offs of American intellectual property while British machine tools were high quality multi-use devices that commanded a premium market, were adaptable but required skilled labour. In the event of interruption of German supply the British had the USA.

Steel is much the same story, the British focused on making those grades of steel that foreign suppliers could not provide more cheaply but in each case they had multiple alternative suppliers...actually I think at the time of World War 1 Spain was a more important supplier than Sweden for the British though worth noting German industry was heavily dependent on ore from Sweden itself.

If you keep repeating an invalid because multiple times refuted by stronger evidence claim that does not make it true. The risk is it makes you a liar. I think you need to stop bolding hyperbolic statements that have already been scrutinised and found wanting and try and craft a more nuanced argument that might actually makes sense due to being an approximation of reality.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Steel is much the same story, the British focused on making those grades of steel that foreign suppliers could not provide more cheaply but in each case they had multiple alternative suppliers...actually I think at the time of World War 1 Spain was a more important supplier than Sweden for the British though worth noting German industry was heavily dependent on ore from Sweden itself.
I mean steel, not ore. Britain had to depend on American, Swedish and German imports before ww1. The same with ball bearings.
 
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