Discussion: Comparing British and German industries 1900-1940

Deleted member 1487

You keep assuming they are a small part of their economy just because they didn't employ a large number of people. That's sort of like saying America doesn't produce a lot of crops because agriculture employs so few people.

Maybe Britain imported most of its crops! But it'd be nice to see evidence.
WW1/2 agriculture is hardly like modern US agriculture in terms of mechanization. It was a small part of the economy, because it was effectively written off as an economic sector so that Britain could specialize in industrial production for export to the colonies, while the colonies provided them with food. Classic Ricardian economic theory. It was a minor part of the overall economy and in peace time serviced less than half British food needs IIRC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_of_British_Agriculture
By 1900 wheat-growing land was only a little over 50% of the total of 1872 and shrank further until 1914.[30]
Subsequently, Britain became the most industrialised major country with the smallest proportion of its resources devoted to agriculture.[36]
Between 1809 and 1879, 88% of British millionaires had been landowners; between 1880 and 1914 this figure dropped to 33% and fell further after the First World War.[40]
Britain's dependence on imported grain during the 1830s was 2%; during the 1860s it was 24%; during the 1880s it was 45%, for corn it was 65%.
[37] By 1914 Britain was dependent on imports for four-fifths of her wheat and 40% of her meat.[38]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_of_British_Agriculture#cite_note-40
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_Kingdom#1850_to_1939
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_Kingdom#1939_to_1945

I hope that's enough evidence for ya ;)
 

Thomas1195

Banned
I don't know. Depends on high tech. I think automatives count as "high tech" for instance, especially given the standard of the day. Britain's advantages in cryptanalysis and atomic weapons also suggest better physicists.
Between 1900 and 1940, Chemical, precision instruments, motor car, aircraft, electrical and electronic, machinery industries (regarding industries, production and commercialize aspects must be also taken into account). Germany was superior in most of these, except for aircraft and motor car.
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't know. Depends on high tech. I think automatives count as "high tech" for instance, especially given the standard of the day. Britain's advantages in cryptanalysis and atomic weapons also suggest better physicists.
German industry was focused more on heavy industrial technologies and industry, while the Brits were more focused on light consumer industries like automotive ones. They were outcompeted in heavy industry by the Germans so they gave up and focused on the stuff that they were superior at (at the time, Volkswagen pretty much killed off the British auto industry).
British advantages in crypt analysis was a function of Nazi German bureaucracy having 16 different agencies doing crypt work and not working together, while the Germans also stupidly relied on a few cypher machines, while the Allies did not, which made their most important codes a LOT hard to break than the German ones, because there was so much more Enigma and Lorenz Cipher traffic, plus errors (and captured code books) for the Allies to find work ins on.
As to nuclear physics the German were way ahead of the Brits, they just forced out their best theoretical physicists. It was two German Jewish physicists that actually gave the Brits the conceptual understanding that the Bomb was even possible, before that they had written it off:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisch–Peierls_memorandum

It was an issue of the Germans just having about twice the population of Britain and a larger place in the European economy to draw on for their talent and resources, not that there was necessarily anything superior about the Germans or their system (which was patently inferior under the Nazis).

Between 1900 and 1940, Chemical, precision instruments, motor car, aircraft, electrical and electronic, machinery industries (regarding industries, production and commercialize aspects must be also taken into account). Germany was superior in most of these, except for aircraft and motor car.
Arguably the German auto and aircraft industry was on par or better by 1940, but the Brits had the advantage of being able to import US machine tools and raw materials, while the German economy and aviation sectors were managed by Goering and Udet.
 
I don't know. Depends on high tech. I think automatives count as "high tech" for instance, especially given the standard of the day. Britain's advantages in cryptanalysis and atomic weapons also suggest better physicists.
Let us not forget this rather broad statement ...
In technical eduction, Germany before Nazi, no contest. Most sources, except for Edgerton, noted that British society at that time was too anti-tech, anti-science.
... about a country that between 1910 and 1940 invented or discovered, stereo sound, television, penicillin, the analogue computer, the cavity magnetron, the folding carton, Stainless Steel, polythene, vitamins, Sonar, the Tank, X-ray crystallography, atomic numbers, isotopes, protons and neutrons, that was the first to split the atom, the Jet Engine and the crossword puzzle.

Truly shockingly anti-intellectual.
 

Deleted member 1487

Let us not forget this rather broad statement ...

... about a country that between 1910 and 1940 invented or discovered, stereo sound, television, penicillin, the analogue computer, the cavity magnetron, the folding carton, Stainless Steel, polythene, vitamins, Sonar, the Tank, X-ray crystallography, atomic numbers, isotopes, protons and neutrons, that was the first to split the atom, the Jet Engine and the crossword puzzle.

Truly shockingly anti-intellectual.
I get your point, but a lot of the things you listed were not done by the British, penecillin was effectively an American invention for instance as the Brits couldn't really get good yields, and had to take it to the US, where US scientists ended up producing the strains that allowed it to be mass produced and highly effective. The tank was invented by an Austrian in 1906, but the Austrians and Germans didn't want to put money into it, while the French were working on their own project independent of the Brits. The first atom was split by German physicists, who also were the ones that conceptualized the A-bomb when working in Britain, as they were Jewish. The Jet engine was discovered by several nations independently. TV, like radio, was not invented in just one place or by one person. The cavity magnetron had the same situation, the first ones were actually invented in Czechoslovakia, Germany, and Japan long before it was made in Britain and the British model needed to be redesigned and improved on by the Americans starting in 1940 to make it a viable production design. Germans invented X-ray crystalography, Brits just expounded on their research. Atomic numbers were invented by a Russian and German independently, it was later confirmed by Bohr and several physicists, some of which were British. Several people from different countries invented Sonar about the same time. Polyethylene was invented by Germans. You might want to fact check this stuff. But yes in general the Brits were no slouches in invention or science, but between 1901-1939 the Germans won more Nobel Prizes for science than any other nation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
Add up the numbers from 1901-1939 for all the major countries.
 
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Thomas1195

Banned
It's also a hard debate because when you say the British were more anti-science, you have to ignore the Third Reich.
I said before Nazi. British people preferred literature and art rather than tech. You can find the number of science and tech graduates in two countries in 1914
 
I said before Nazi. British people preferred literature and art rather than tech. You can find the number of science and tech graduates in two countries in 1914

And other than that, Mr. Lincoln, how did you like the play? Your first post explicitly says it goes up to 1940.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
To make this a fair comparison, I think you'd need to know how you are defining graduates, no?
Uni graduates. Back then they were truly well trained, unlike British ''practical men''. New industries were science based and involved lots of systemic research, so they would require well trained professionals.
 
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Uni graduates. Back then they were truly well trained, unlike British ''practical men''. New industries were science based and involved lots of systemic research, so they would require well trained professionals.

Where's this cite coming from, and why is it clear that Britain was not relying on, say, an apprenticeship system?
 
I'm prepared to accept the idea that Germany had a superior educational system, hobbled by its cartels, junkerism, and antisemitism.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
British electrical industry output was less than a third of Germany.
https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=AobnW_ouxn0C&pg=PA94&dq=british+electrical+industry+in+1914+less+than+a+third&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYnIq2qc3QAhUHv5QKHXhLD4AQ6AEIKTAC#v=onepage&q=british electrical industry in 1914 less than a third&f=false

German electrical good exports accounted for 46% of world export market. Siemens was the largest employer in the world in this sector, with over 80000 employees.
https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=IPngdGug27kC&pg=PA348&dq=german+electrical+industry+in+1914&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjczM-7ysjQAhWIvrwKHQCxA7UQ6AEIJDAC#v=onepage&q=german electrical industry in 1914&f=false


Electrical equipment industry was a crucial industry since 1900.

First, electric powered machinery had lots of advantage that help improve producion efficiency, thus would boost industrial output, and also military production during wartime (more guns, rifles, shells). Many industrial process required electricity like aluminum production.

''Industrial processes were no longer limited by power transmission using line shafts, belts, compressed air or hydraulic pressure. Instead every machine could be equipped with its own electric motor, providing easy control at the point of use, and improving power transmission efficiency. Electric motors applied in agriculture eliminated human and animal muscle power from such tasks as handling grain or pumping water. Household uses of electric motors reduced heavy labor in the home and made higher standards of convenience, comfort and safety possible.''
(Wikipedia - electric motor)

Second, it also provide a wide range of consumer products which could generate huge profits and greatly improved living standard like telephone, light bulb, fan, radio, washing machine, vacuum cleaner, typewriter...

Finally, it can also provide various communication equipment that have high military value, such as field telephone and radio, or camera.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
When are we talking about?
It's true that British auto industry was stronger until 1956.

But in 7 major ''new'', high-tech engineering industries (chemical, electrical, electronic, precision instruments, machinery, aircraft, auto), Germany outperformed in at least 5, and the distance was substantial
 
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Thomas1195

Banned
Farm machinery. Many British farms particulary in the main arable areas of the East Midlands and East Anglia were mechanised against how many virtually subsistence farmers in Germany.

Railways. British railway companies and rolling stock manufacturers were able to replace all the French and Belgian rolling stock lost in 1914 within a year.
Farm machinery: OK, but it was no where near the level in the USA, and thus it did not help UK to achieve food self sufficient. German Empire actually was nearly self-sufficient in food before ww1.

Railways: German railway system was even larger.
 
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