Discussion: Catholic Chinese Rite

So, the Chinese rites controversy. The Jesuits saw the possibility of converting China early on. They were looking for a way to synthesize Confucianism and Catholicism in an orthodox manner.

And the other religious orders (Dominicans and Franciscans) didn't like that, thinking the attempt at synthesis was itself heretical.

In OTL, the Dominicans won and the Jesuits were banned from Asia. And Catholicism somewhat lost its foothold on China after increasing persecution by the Qianlong Emperor. And decades later, the Jesuits were suppressed by various states since they were seen as too tied to the pope.

In modern times, the pope's decision was reversed, seeing the Chinese traditions as secular and cultural.

So, could the Jesuits triumph in an alternate scenario? What would this mean for Catholicism in the Far East?

And could this butterfly away the suppression of the Jesuits?
 
Problem is that Dominicans were at least partially right : Jesuis just overlooked several issues for the sake of conversion.

I would tend to think that the change of dynasty from Ming to Qing provoked a need of defining clearly what was chinese culture. Without that, *maybe* Jesuits would have a better time promoting a more orthodox viewpoints on chinese rites, rather than jury-rigging it with orthodoxy.

You'd need an earlier and deeper Jesuist presence in China, and if possible, a parallel mission by Dominicans and/or Franciscans.
It could make these orders having a more realistic approach of conversions in China.

There, I think the "easier" way would be to maintain the franciscan mission in China of the XIIIth/XIVth centuries, in order to make Christianity look less foreign.

Eventually, the conciliation between Chinese rites and Christianity seems hard to reach, if not for a side to concede something. Chinese emperors couldn't do that without loosing legitimacy, and the popes alike. Only if the dynasty is willing to convert, IMHO, Rome would accept to concede several points for the sake of it.
 
Problem is that Dominicans were at least partially right : Jesuis just overlooked several issues for the sake of conversion.

I would tend to think that the change of dynasty from Ming to Qing provoked a need of defining clearly what was chinese culture. Without that, *maybe* Jesuits would have a better time promoting a more orthodox viewpoints on chinese rites, rather than jury-rigging it with orthodoxy.

You'd need an earlier and deeper Jesuist presence in China, and if possible, a parallel mission by Dominicans and/or Franciscans.
It could make these orders having a more realistic approach of conversions in China.

There, I think the "easier" way would be to maintain the franciscan mission in China of the XIIIth/XIVth centuries, in order to make Christianity look less foreign.

Eventually, the conciliation between Chinese rites and Christianity seems hard to reach, if not for a side to concede something. Chinese emperors couldn't do that without loosing legitimacy, and the popes alike. Only if the dynasty is willing to convert, IMHO, Rome would accept to concede several points for the sake of it.

true enough. but most missionaries in those days overlooked various problems in strict doctrine. much easier to convert people that way.

but yeah. maybe if the Franciscans and Dominicans went to China with the Jesuits instead of sitting back in the Philippines, being tutors for the rich, making wine, and siring bastards, China would have had a far larger Christian minority. at least, a far larger Catholic minority.

and maybe, if the pope approves the partial syncretism, we would have a Far Eastern Rite that the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans would relate to better.

but of course, it'd seem like borderline heresy. oh well, imagining a plausible way for the Catholic Church to dominate East Asia is fun. :p:p:p

of course, there are the Nestorians, and the possibility of Franciscans converting the Tang dynasty to Christianity, but that's another, borderline ASB scenario altogether...

anyway, any more ideas? :)
 
true enough. but most missionaries in those days overlooked various problems in strict doctrine. much easier to convert people that way.

but yeah. maybe if the Franciscans and Dominicans went to China with the Jesuits instead of sitting back in the Philippines, being tutors for the rich, making wine, and siring bastards, China would have had a far larger Christian minority. at least, a far larger Catholic minority.

and maybe, if the pope approves the partial syncretism, we would have a Far Eastern Rite that the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans would relate to better.

but of course, it'd seem like borderline heresy. oh well, imagining a plausible way for the Catholic Church to dominate East Asia is fun. :p:p:p

of course, there are the Nestorians, and the possibility of Franciscans converting the Tang dynasty to Christianity, but that's another, borderline ASB scenario altogether...

anyway, any more ideas? :)

I don't think that a separate Far Eastern Rite would be seen as heretical. There were already Christian communities in the Middle East which belonged to the Catholic Church and used their own rites, adding one more shouldn't have been a problem.
 
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