Disaster of the House of Austria

16th century was extremaly lucky for House of Habsburg-they get thrones of all Iberian Kingdoms, Bohemia and Hungary, were also close
to get Polish and English throne in addition. Let's see what would happen with that chain of lucky events reversed and Habsburgs reduced back to Austria.

One of these unfortunate events that hit House of Habsburg would be death of Ferdinand Habsburg at age 5-nothing unusual back then, when children mortality was sky-high, the fact, that all six children of Joanna the Mad survived to adulthood was more unusual. There is still Charles, Habsburgs are not lost yet! But death of grandson may cause Emperor Maximilian to consider another marriage (and get annulment of current one, still even without annulment he had 8 years after death of Bianca Sforza)-I want Habsburgs to fall, but not to die out, so Max would marry again, and there is something, that could make him more willing to take new wife-Vladislaus II of Hungary has no daughter-ITTL Anna de Foix gave birth to a son in 1503, so marriage between Max' grandson and Vladislaus' daughter is not possible, Vladislaus has no daughter, but still has one unmarried sister-Elizabeth, born in 1482 (definitely too old for Charles) IOTL Vladislaus and Sigismund proposed him her hand in 1511 after death of Bianca, but Max refused, ITTL he would be more interested-not only is future of his dynasty less secure, he needs also to make ties with King of Hungary and Bohemia by marrying his sister to strenghten Habsburg claims to these thrones. So Emperor marry Elizabeth ITTL and have one child with her-son named Frederick born in 1513. Max has moment of joy before next catastrophe-in 1517 his grandchildren left Low Countries for Iberia-Charles to take thrones of Castile and Aragon, Eleanor to marry Manuel of Portugal. Charles' reign doesn't last long. He fell ill and died on 25 September 1518, exactly 12 years after his father. Spain really is Habsburg's grave. Maximiliam soon follows his grandson and dies in January 1519. Manuel Aviz, who is from few months married to Maximilian's oldest granddaughter, claims thrones of Castile and Aragon and Burgundian inheritance. King Francis of France surely would try to use opportunity to get at least Artois and Franche-Comté. Only remaining male Habsburg-5 years old Frederick, inherits Austria, but that is all which is left to him-he had no claims to Spain and Burgundian Inheritance and is too young to be elected as Emperor. But Imperial throne would not remain empty. Who's going to win? Would François still try his chance, now when there is no danger of Habsburg encirclement of France? Or he'd just use opportunity to grab as much of Burgundian Inheritance as possible. Perhaps Frederick the Wise of Saxony would be elected? He had electoral vote, would have support of Fuggers, who had their mines in Saxony, IOTL get even support of Pope. That would have interesting effect on Martin Luther's career if Elector of Saxony gets Imperial throne...
 
16th century was extremaly lucky for House of Habsburg-they get thrones of all Iberian Kingdoms, Bohemia and Hungary, were also close
to get Polish and English throne in addition. Let's see what would happen with that chain of lucky events reversed and Habsburgs reduced back to Austria.

One of these unfortunate events that hit House of Habsburg would be death of Ferdinand Habsburg at age 5-nothing unusual back then, when children mortality was sky-high, the fact, that all six children of Joanna the Mad survived to adulthood was more unusual. There is still Charles, Habsburgs are not lost yet! But death of grandson may cause Emperor Maximilian to consider another marriage ...

<snip marriages>

So Emperor marry Elizabeth ITTL and have one child with her-son named Frederick born in 1513. Max has moment of joy before next catastrophe-in 1517 his grandchildren left Low Countries for Iberia-Charles to take thrones of Castile and Aragon, Eleanor to marry Manuel of Portugal. Charles' reign doesn't last long. He fell ill and died on 25 September 1518, exactly 12 years after his father. Spain really is Habsburg's grave. Maximiliam soon follows his grandson and dies in January 1519. Manuel Aviz, who is from few months married to Maximilian's oldest granddaughter, claims thrones of Castile and Aragon and Burgundian inheritance. King Francis of France surely would try to use opportunity to get at least Artois and Franche-Comté. Only remaining male Habsburg-5 years old Frederick, inherits Austria, but that is all which is left to him-he had no claims to Spain and Burgundian Inheritance and is too young to be elected as Emperor. But Imperial throne would not remain empty. Who's going to win? Would François still try his chance, now when there is no danger of Habsburg encirclement of France? Or he'd just use opportunity to grab as much of Burgundian Inheritance as possible. Perhaps Frederick the Wise of Saxony would be elected? He had electoral vote, would have support of Fuggers, who had their mines in Saxony, IOTL get even support of Pope. That would have interesting effect on Martin Luther's career if Elector of Saxony gets Imperial throne...

Very interesting. If I understand your schema correctly it means that there is no joined Spanish-Imperial military force opposing France in Italy. If Francis and a new Spanish king (Manuel?) have a deal regarding Naples/Sicily, then Spain may be out of the equation completely and a new titular ruler of the Hapsburg lands (a) does not have any claim to Milan and (b) can not use the imperial resources (landsknechts). Which means that the only thing Francis has against him is a potential Italian coalition which he has resources to defeat.

Can you please clarify who is formally inheriting the Netherlands? As I understand, Frederic (being from the wrong mother) does not have a claim which means that they are left on their own with any number of the interesting possibilities. Or did I miss one of the countless marriages which would take care of this problem?
 
Very interesting. If I understand your schema correctly it means that there is no joined Spanish-Imperial military force opposing France in Italy. If Francis and a new Spanish king (Manuel?) have a deal regarding Naples/Sicily, then Spain may be out of the equation completely and a new titular ruler of the Hapsburg lands (a) does not have any claim to Milan and (b) can not use the imperial resources (landsknechts). Which means that the only thing Francis has against him is a potential Italian coalition which he has resources to defeat.

Can you please clarify who is formally inheriting the Netherlands? As I understand, Frederic (being from the wrong mother) does not have a claim which means that they are left on their own with any number of the interesting possibilities. Or did I miss one of the countless marriages which would take care of this problem?
At the time of Max' death his 4 granddaughters are still alive-Isabella is married to Christian of Denmark, but Danish King is not in position to claim Burgundian Inheritance. Oldest Eleanor (wife of Manuel of Portugal) is now heiress of Spain and Low Countries, so new Spanish Royal Couple (Manuel & Eleanor) should get these lands in theory, but they still need secure Spanish throne first. Manuel could make deal with Francis and divide Burgundian Inheritance (where Eleanor's aunt Margaret of Austria is regent) or Francis would try to conquer whole (estates of Low Countries would rather preffer their rightful heiress Eleanor), so French-Spanish war is likely. Instead of Italian War there could be Burgundian War.
Meanwhile with Habsburgs reduced to the level of Wittelsbachs Hungarians (under sane king ITTL) would not be controlled by Habsburg's spies and would:
-look for another ally against Ottomans, it could be even France ITTL (without Habsburg encirclement France and Ottomans would not need to be allies, although alliance with Ottomans against Spain is not ruled out).
-be more wary to not provoke Sultan to invade.
 
Still the most intriguing question is-what would happen to Luther if Frederick the Wise is Holy Roman Emperor? Politically Elector of Saxony have little to gain now from converting to Protestantism-3 electoral votes from ecclesiastical electorates with one vote from Saxony are guarantion of winning election. What would Wettins do? Sacrifice Imperial throne for their dynasty in the name of Luther's teaching?
 
At the time of Max' death his 4 granddaughters are still alive-Isabella is married to Christian of Denmark, but Danish King is not in position to claim Burgundian Inheritance. Oldest Eleanor (wife of Manuel of Portugal) is now heiress of Spain and Low Countries, so new Spanish Royal Couple (Manuel & Eleanor) should get these lands in theory, but they still need secure Spanish throne first. Manuel could make deal with Francis and divide Burgundian Inheritance (where Eleanor's aunt Margaret of Austria is regent) or Francis would try to conquer whole (estates of Low Countries would rather preffer their rightful heiress Eleanor), so French-Spanish war is likely. Instead of Italian War there could be Burgundian War.
Meanwhile with Habsburgs reduced to the level of Wittelsbachs Hungarians (under sane king ITTL) would not be controlled by Habsburg's spies and would:
-look for another ally against Ottomans, it could be even France ITTL (without Habsburg encirclement France and Ottomans would not need to be allies, although alliance with Ottomans against Spain is not ruled out).
-be more wary to not provoke Sultan to invade.
Jan no way here Eleanor, heiress presuntive of both Spain and Low Countries, will be married to Manuel. She will marry her cousin John as originally proposed (and is likely they will be married as soon is possible, so in 1516 so before the OTL's death of Maria)
 
Jan no way here Eleanor, heiress presuntive of both Spain and Low Countries, will be married to Manuel. She will marry her cousin John as originally proposed (and is likely they will be married as soon is possible, so in 1516 so before the OTL's death of Maria)
At the time Eleanor married Manuel ITTL Charles was still alive (they married in July, Charles ITTL dies in late September).
 
Although with only Charles between Eleanor and Spanish throne Manuel could see her marriage with John as more profitable for House of Aviz (or his second wife simply lives longer). That would make unification of Iberian Kingdoms under House of Aviz less problematic.
 
At the time Eleanor married Manuel ITTL Charles was still alive (they married in July, Charles ITTL dies in late September).
I know... I was just saying who with Eleanor as heiress presuntive of his brother Manuel will likely want her for his son as soon is possible (John will be 14 in 1516, a year before his mother's death) so she will be already married at the time of her aunt's death and her OTL first wedding.
In any case I can not see a Manuel who, with Eleanor in the exact position of her aunt Isabella years before, do not work early for securing the girl for his son and heir so she in 1517 will be at least engaged to John by 5/6 years if she had not already married him before Maria's death. Here Eleanor will likely be engaged to John shortly after being jilted by Henry VIII in 1509
 
At the time of Max' death his 4 granddaughters are still alive-Isabella is married to Christian of Denmark, but Danish King is not in position to claim Burgundian Inheritance. Oldest Eleanor (wife of Manuel of Portugal) is now heiress of Spain and Low Countries, so new Spanish Royal Couple (Manuel & Eleanor) should get these lands in theory, but they still need secure Spanish throne first. Manuel could make deal with Francis and divide Burgundian Inheritance (where Eleanor's aunt Margaret of Austria is regent) or Francis would try to conquer whole (estates of Low Countries would rather preffer their rightful heiress Eleanor), so French-Spanish war is likely. Instead of Italian War there could be Burgundian War.

I'm not sure if at that time any of the kings of France had (open) designs on getting more than the "French" part of the Burgundian Inheritance which means not even Franche-Comté (more below) where Margaret is a legal ruler elected by the representative assembly (unlike the Netherlands where she was an appointed regent). Francis' main interest was in Milan to which he was claiming a legal right and which he got as a result of his 1st Italian War. In OTL he was beaten in the Four Years' War of 1521 - 26 (France and Venice against Charles V, Henry VIII and the Papacy) and lost Milan but that war started with the French - Navarrese failed attempt to reconquer Navarre and French attack on the Low Counties.

300px-Conquista_de_Navarra.svg.png


Now, it seems that "Spanish component" is more or less the same but situation with the HRE is different - as I understand, in your scenario the emperor is (most probably) Elector of Saxony who does not have a direct interest in the Italian affairs. As a result, there is no "Imperial component" of the Four Years' War, no French defeat at Bicocca and no loss of Milan (even if there is a revolt, as in OTL, it is crushed without "Imperial component").

Spain, if its new rulers are more or less competent and secure, probably can try to defend both Navarre and the Low Counties because its armies are, technically speaking, better than French. However, this advantage may not be enough if France is completely free from fighting in Italy and can concentrate most of its resources on a single theater (Low Counties): it has serious financial advantage which allows hiring both Swiss AND the German mercenaries (Francis had landsknechts against the Swiss during his 1st Italian War and in your scenario the HRE is neutral in Franco-Spanish conflict). OTOH, Spanish rulers can't easily strengthen this theater: the imperial resources are not easily available (and France is clearly a more reliable employer) and the only way of communication is by the sea along the French coast (OK, we can imagine Spanish-English alliance which would make the sea route more secure but still sending big numbers of troops can be problematic).

Karte_Haus_Burgund_5.png




Basically, Francis may want to return the hatched areas on the map above (those returned to Habsburg in 1493) and, if he is very successful, his ambitions may extend to the whole County of Flanders, which was, historically, the French fief until they had been transferred to the HRE by the Treaty of Senlis in 1493.

French Comte (County of Burgundy) is a less likely target because formally it is a part of the HRE with no French claim except for a straightforward act of an open aggression by Louis XI (it was hold by the Burgundian Valois since 1384 as a personal union in their capacity of the Counts of Flanders). If Francis is a little bit more intelligent than he seems to be in the OTL (and perhaps even on from OTL may have enough brains), he may abstain from this conquest because no matter who is the current emperor, he may be forced to react on the French conquest of the imperial territory.


270px-County_of_Flanders_%28topogaphy%29.png





Meanwhile with Habsburgs reduced to the level of Wittelsbachs Hungarians (under sane king ITTL) would not be controlled by Habsburg's spies and would:
-look for another ally against Ottomans, it could be even France ITTL (without Habsburg encirclement France and Ottomans would not need to be allies, although alliance with Ottomans against Spain is not ruled out).
-be more wary to not provoke Sultan to invade.

Well, in that scenario the Ottomans may not even invade (at least on the same time table) if the Hungarians are paying tribute and not making unnecessary trouble in Walachia, Banat and other places. The weakened Hapsburgs are not the "Enemy #1" and most of the reasoning behind OTL conquest of Hungary (just to have an easy access to Austria) is absent: if there is no strategic need to attack the Austrian Hapsburgs, then attack on tribute-paying Hungary is not needed.

Franco-Ottoman alliance against Spain seems a little bit too far-fetched until 1516 or later because the Ottomans are just in a process of getting closer to the potential theater of war against Spain (Algeria - 1516, Egypt - 1516 - 18). BTW, how your schema is dealing with Naples & Sicily? If they are in the Spanish hands, then the Ottomans are much closer and alliance is making more sense.
 
Still the most intriguing question is-what would happen to Luther if Frederick the Wise is Holy Roman Emperor? Politically Elector of Saxony have little to gain now from converting to Protestantism-3 electoral votes from ecclesiastical electorates with one vote from Saxony are guarantion of winning election. What would Wettins do? Sacrifice Imperial throne for their dynasty in the name of Luther's teaching?

Nickname "the Wise" kind of assumes that the person is not an idiot. ;)
 
If Spain ends up allied with the Ottomans, could they (intentionally or unintentionally) end up damaging the Ottoman economy by flooding the market with American gold and silver?

Just a thought. I'm not an expert in economics.
 
If Spain ends up allied with the Ottomans, could they (intentionally or unintentionally) end up damaging the Ottoman economy by flooding the market with American gold and silver?

Just a thought. I'm not an expert in economics.
Nope, as ottomans are trading spice for gold and the gold will be use for colonization and bringing up more exotics products from Asia.
 
Couple of butterflies:
-Johann Hohenzollern would not be appointed Viceroy of Valencia and would not marry Germaine de Foix (IOTL Charles V made him viceroy because Hohenzollerns supported his candidature for HRE throne).
-Kasimir Hohenzollern, Margrave of Kulmbach, would not die from dysentery fighting for Ferdinand Habsburg's case in Hungary in 1527. So his brother Georg would not take care over his children and would not raise them as Protestants.
-Janos Zapolya is going to marry earlier if Vladislaus has no daughter (IOTL he wanted to marry Anna), likely with Margaret Hohenzollern (sister of Johann and Kasimir, niece of Vladislaus) who was offered to him. Thus relations between Zapolya and Vladislaus should be better, also if Max marry Elizabeth Jagiellon in 1511/12 there would be Jagiellon-Habsburg deal similar to OTL 1515 first congress of Vienna few years earlier, so there would be no need for marriage of Zapolya's sister Barbara with Sigismund the Old (Janos is already married to Sigismund's niece and Sigismund changes his policy towards Habsburgs earlier)
-So Sigismund the Old likely has another wife ITTL, perhaps Catherine of Mecklenburg (born 1487) whom he planned to marry IOTL.
 
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