Disaster at Pearl

Of course, that raises the question of why Zuikaku did not embark a hybrid air group of her own planes and pilots and the surviving ones from Shokaku and go to Midway.

Because the Japanese suffered from a racial stereotype that everybody was inferior to them and from "victory disease" because they think each ship they damaged was in fact sunk.

So the Japanese believe the Americans will fall to the Aleutians diversion and that they will have only two carriers, the Yorktown being sunk at Coral Sea...

And the 2 US carriers will be no match against 4 japaneses...

But Midway became an insubmersible aircraft-carrier with around 200 planes and the US had 3 CV...
 
What do people think about whether USS Wasp would be immediately pulled from the Atlantic Fleet or not? With the interest here I'm thinking of doing a timeline, and her presence or absence in the Pacific for the first few months seems fairly important to me.


I think she goes to the Pacific, just not immediately.

After losing Enterprise and Lexington, you've got Saratoga and Yorktown with Hornet working up. The USN spent time during the OTL war with as little as one deck available, so two plus one on deck isn't going to rope Wasp into the Pacific immediately. Especially given the USN's well founded concerns about her survivability.

This is your time line and you're doing a bang up job. I pointed out earlier to another poster that any focused speculation would require decisions about the course of events after Pearl and the losses the USN suffers from those events. Given your questions, it seems that you have already made decisions regarding those events and losses.

In the OTL Wasp went to the Pacific after the USN suffered certain losses and needed to meet certain obligations. ITTL I'd think Wasp would make a similar transfer after the USN's losses produce a somewhat similar situation/need.
 
This is your time line and you're doing a bang up job. I pointed out earlier to another poster that any focused speculation would require decisions about the course of events after Pearl and the losses the USN suffers from those events. Given your questions, it seems that you have already made decisions regarding those events and losses.

Not decisions, more guidelines, which are slowly firming up as discussion happens here. Something VERY closely resembling the Doolittle Raid will happen. In fact, the average person probably won't spot the differences (not knowing that one of the carriers is a different ship or that its happening, say, a week later). The same situation that led to the battle of the Coral Sea will happen, and will result in a carrier battle. I'm undecided as to what ships will be sunk and damaged.

Ships will also be sunk and damaged outside major battles, though not quite on the same schedule as OTL due to butterflies. Again, I'm undecided on which ships will have different fates, though my intent is to keep things proportional to OTL for the first six months.

After Coral Sea, things get murky. The IJN will seek a battle to wipe out the USN carriers... but the USN may not be willing to grant it depending on its status. OTL's Midway, after all, only happened because the USN was willing to meet the IJN in battle at 4:3 odds in fleet carriers. Would they have been willing at 4:2 odds? I'm not sure. The Solomons campaign may not happen, and if it does will be rather different from OTL.

Eventually, the growing USN will smash the IJN either by attrition or in a decisive victory (like OTL's Midway). The Japanese will lose the war, which will end in late 1945 or sometime in 1946.

Thank you for your thoughts on USS Wasp's deployment.

I'm also going to repeat an earlier question: can anyone find a source for USS Lexington's planned movements as of August? It matters quite a bit whether she's IN Pearl or just NEAR Pearl.

Edit: found it! http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/410813apac.html
So she would have been operating on 12/7/41.
 
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Not decisions, more guidelines, which are slowly firming up as discussion happens here.


That's understandable.

I'm undecided as to what ships will be sunk and damaged.

Until you do, I'd suggest that no firm decisions regarding Wasp need to made.

Ships will also be sunk and damaged outside major battles, though not quite on the same schedule as OTL due to butterflies.

Please do not even hint at those decisions. This thread is for the "fan dance", for weighing all the options. Save the real stuff for the "real" thread. :)

After Coral Sea, things get murky.

Indeed, and that's all up to you because only you currently know what may happen. As before, please don't drop any direct hints here.

Thank you for your thoughts on USS Wasp's deployment.

I'm very glad I could help in any small way.

I'm also going to repeat an earlier question: can anyone find a source for USS Lexington's planned movements as of August? It matters quite a bit whether she's IN Pearl or just NEAR Pearl.

Perusing my links list here... good grief... I've TROMs for every IJN capital unit and hardly any for their USN counterparts. Perhaps a PM to CalBear or Bearcat?
 
I believe this is generally accepted as being due to overconfidence combined with the fact that it is easier to rebuild two carrier air groups from two half groups than to build one from scratch.

Shokaku and Zuikaku were division mates; keeping them together makes sense in principle.

If anything, what I've seen of the status of Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu and Soryu's air groups at Midway indicates that the survivors of Shokaku and Zuikaku's groups could have been almost fully employed filling the gaps in their groups. That probably wouldn't have made any difference in the outcome (not one favorable to Japan, at any rate), of course, while one more deck might have.

What do people think about whether USS Wasp would be immediately pulled from the Atlantic Fleet or not? With the interest here I'm thinking of doing a timeline, and her presence or absence in the Pacific for the first few months seems fairly important to me.


USS Wasp was not allowed to sail to the Pacific that soon, due to Allied Agreements made earlier. Her departure from the European Front would not have had a very positive effect on the relationships between the US and UK, and certainly not the USSR, who had become an ally of the USA as well and simply demanded a strong Allied Naval presence in the North Atlantic, since it was not able to do so herself.

The British would rather take over USS Wasp, rather than have her sail to the Pacfic, to serve no one, except the USA (which also was seriously doubting about Wasp's capabilities, as her airgroup was not equipped with torpedobombers normally, since these were only shipped in late august 1942 for the first time.) USS Wasp was badly needed in the Mediteranean, due to too many British carriers unavailable for various reaons in that specific part of the world. Since the Mediteranean Sea is much more strategically important than the entire Pacific, the choice was logical.
 
OK, so based on the schedules here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/410813apac.html

USS Lexington was not scheduled to be in port on 12/7/41 prior to the decision to deploy fighters to Midway.

Interestingly, the schedule implies that USS Saratoga would be there in addition to USS Enterprise, along with all nine battleships. In fact, of course, USS Saratoga and USS Colorado (BB44) were on the Pacific coast.

USS Saratoga sailed for Puget Sound on 11/26/1941. We've delayed the order for planes to move forward; can anyone think of a plausible reason this would wind up delaying her sailing?
 
OK, so based on the schedules here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/410813apac.html

USS Lexington was not scheduled to be in port on 12/7/41 prior to the decision to deploy fighters to Midway.

Interestingly, the schedule implies that USS Saratoga would be there in addition to USS Enterprise, along with all nine battleships. In fact, of course, USS Saratoga and USS Colorado (BB44) were on the Pacific coast.

USS Saratoga sailed for Puget Sound on 11/26/1941. We've delayed the order for planes to move forward; can anyone think of a plausible reason this would wind up delaying her sailing?


Go for it Gridley! Knock out both the Pacific Fleet's carriers and the battleline. Be da Man! :)
 
USS Saratoga sailed for Puget Sound on 11/26/1941. We've delayed the order for planes to move forward; can anyone think of a plausible reason this would wind up delaying her sailing?


If anything I'd think no need to deliver planes would advance Saratoga's sailing for Puget.

It was just a routine yard availability right? Drydock her, check the hull, screws, and rudders, have the yardbirds tackle a few repairs all over the ship, do some scraping, slap on some paint, refloat her, then steam back. Routine stuff ever major warship wants done every couple of years or so.

With tensions mounting in the Pacific, Kimmel would want Sara's "oil changed" and "tires checked" as soon as possible. Once there's no need to keep her at Pearl, she's told to scoot to Puget, get checked, and scoot back.

No plane deliveries means early yard availability date to me. So she's away from Pearl sooner.
 
If anything I'd think no need to deliver planes would advance Saratoga's sailing for Puget.

It was just a routine yard availability right? Drydock her, check the hull, screws, and rudders, have the yardbirds tackle a few repairs all over the ship, do some scraping, slap on some paint, refloat her, then steam back. Routine stuff ever major warship wants done every couple of years or so.

With tensions mounting in the Pacific, Kimmel would want Sara's "oil changed" and "tires checked" as soon as possible. Once there's no need to keep her at Pearl, she's told to scoot to Puget, get checked, and scoot back.

No plane deliveries means early yard availability date to me. So she's away from Pearl sooner.


Actually, the clearance to deliver the planes arrived on the same day as she sailed for the coast, so there's no real way to move it up unless we make that the PoD.

Hmm. OK, let's check that for plausibility. Adm. Kimmel sends the USS Saratoga in for her maintenace earlier... call it two weeks earlier (the 12th). Then, on the 26th, he gets clearance to ship fighters to Midway. He goes ahead with the plan. The USS Enterprise and her group have a slightly better time with weather (butterflies or sailing a day earlier, take your pick) and actually make it back late evening on December 6th. USS Saratoga made it back to Pearl on 12/15 IOTL, but she hurried back due to the attacks. But she did leave two weeks earlier, so let's say she arrives on the 6th as well.

On the morning of the 7th, USS Saratoga and USS Enterprise are in port when the IJN strike arrives.

Plausible?
 
Actually, the clearance to deliver the planes arrived on the same day as she sailed for the coast, so there's no real way to move it up unless we make that the PoD.


I thought the POD was that Kimmel doesn't get the clearance and doesn't choose to do so on his own so the carriers don't go anywhere? :confused:

Hmm. OK, let's check that for plausibility. (big snip) On the morning of the 7th, USS Saratoga and USS Enterprise are in port when the IJN strike arrives. Plausible?

Yes, most certainly.


Edit: Re-read the first post and smote my forehead with a frying pan. What you written works very neatly and puts Sara where she's needed on the 7th.

You've got your POD, time to start plotting the rest! ;)
 
USS Saratoga made it back to Pearl on 12/15 IOTL, but she hurried back due to the attacks. But she did leave two weeks earlier, so let's say she arrives on the 6th as well.

umm...She wouldn't have had cause to hurry, though. The only reason Saratoga made such incredible time IOTL was because she was hurrying back to Pearl at top speed in the aftermath of the Dec. 7 attack.

Without that added impetus, Saratoga would likely take at least three or four more days to get back to Pearl, which lands her there just in time to help clean up, but not get hit.
 
umm...She wouldn't have had cause to hurry, though. The only reason Saratoga made such incredible time IOTL was because she was hurrying back to Pearl at top speed in the aftermath of the Dec. 7 attack.

Without that added impetus, Saratoga would likely take at least three or four more days to get back to Pearl, which lands her there just in time to help clean up, but not get hit.

I have her leaving TWO WEEKS (14 days) earlier and getting back 9 days earlier. Gee, look at that: FIVE more days to get back to Pearl.
 
First, consider the source. :rolleyes:

Second, please please please please start writing please? :D

I've PM'ed CalBear to ask him to weigh in. After he does or has decided not to, I'll decide if I want to sit down and write this.

I'm seriously considering actually gaming it out with War in the Pacific (Admiral's Edition):

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/351/details/War.in.the.Pacific.-.Admiral's.Edition

which has to be the most detailed PacWar simulation out there and seems to be generally accepted as being realistic when a few house rules are set between players.

Of course, for best results I'd need an opponent. Anyone want to volunteer? :)
 
I believe this is generally accepted as being due to overconfidence combined with the fact that it is easier to rebuild two carrier air groups from two half groups than to build one from scratch.

Shokaku and Zuikaku were division mates; keeping them together makes sense in principle.

Akagi and Kaga were division mates. Yet they were split for the Indian Ocean Raid.
 
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