Disaster at Leuthen TL - Frederick the Great dies in battle

[Vitruvius]

Well IMHO this is a better treaty, however Parma at this point was already ruled by the house of Bourbon-Parma.
I agree with Vitruvius and the 1757 treaty of Versailles is a good arrangement. Austria gains Silesia and Parma and the former duke of Parma (from a cadet branch of the Spanish Bourbons) is compensated with the former Austrian Netherlands as a French client state.

I agree it seems like a better settlement. And while I think the Austrians and French may try to pursue the clauses of the '57 Treaty Direwolf22 has a point that the British are sure to object. So I think this Treaty is reasonable. The French may not agree but I'm not sure what else you could throw their way on top of the rest of their gains. Maybe just a slice of the Austrian Netherlands, Hainaut or Luxembourg perhaps. Then again even that might not be necessary.

I'm curious to see how the Josephine reforms play out in a much stronger Austria. The Bavarian Succession could also be interesting if the Elector still dies without children. There would be little opposition should Joseph still press for an exchange for the Netherlands. I look forward to seeing this continue.

 

[Direwolf22]

Yeah I think I'm gonna keep the French out of the Netherlands, at least for now. The French have gained territory in the Americas so that should keep them happy. So I'm gonna keep Italy divided between France and Austria as well as I have interesting ideas for Italy in the next few decades.

The next update will cover the colonial exchanges and events in Poland, Italy and America.

 

[Valdemar II]

A few comment, I don't think you should give Saxony Hanovers southen exclave or the neighboring territories, Mark, Cleve and Ravensberg plus Prussia in Poland are more than enough and more risk transforming Saxony into a major player, and all they can legitime claim. Instead I think Swedish Bremen-Verden are a better idea, it will weaken Hanover much more, by cutting them of the coast and access to British support. I like you ideas in Poland.

 

[Direwolf22]

A few comment, I don't think you should give Saxony Hanovers southen exclave or the neighboring territories, Mark, Cleve and Ravensberg plus Prussia in Poland are more than enough and more risk transforming Saxony into a major player, and all they can legitime claim. Instead I think Swedish Bremen-Verden are a better idea, it will weaken Hanover much more, by cutting them of the coast and access to British support. I like you ideas in Poland.

You make some good points. However I think I will probably leave the treaty as is. We could have a whole thread dedicated to the terms of the treaty but I think its pretty beliavable as is, which is after all the whole point. I'll try and get an update done either today or tomorrow.

 

[The Sandman]

So how is Britain going to react to their king prioritizing the interests of Hannover over the interests of Britain in a situation where it means concession of lucrative colonial territory to France?

 

[Direwolf22]

So how is Britain going to react to their king prioritizing the interests of Hannover over the interests of Britain in a situation where it means concession of lucrative colonial territory to France?

Well King George historically favoured Hannover, but this was countered by Pitt. Pitt is now in disfavour and the Duke of Newcastle is leading parliament. If Pitt and his followers get back into power, if, then you can expect to see the monarchy marginalised.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Has George III ascended to Britain and Hanover yet?

 

[Direwolf22]

Has George III ascended to Britain and Hanover yet?

No but he will very soon.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

No but he will very soon.

Will he also do the "I glory in the name of Britain" thing?

 

[Direwolf22]

Will he also do the "I glory in the name of Britain" thing?

Probably yeah. But he's gonna have problems making himself heard.

Battle of Quiberon Bay:

Prussian Troops advance against Austrian forces Battle of Leuthen 1758:

 

[Direwolf22]

The Treaty of Rotterdam
1760

The Treaty of Rotterdam (1760) officially ended the Four Years War. This treaty dealt with territorial exchanges outside of Europe. The French gains were originally supposed to be marginal, but were enhanced as a reult of compromises discussed in the earlier Treaty of Dresden.

In India there was no major exchanges. Instead, the continent was in effect divided into areas of influence. Britain's ownership of Bengal was cemented and recognised, as well as of Bombay. French control on the southeast of the subcontinent was accepted by Britain.

In North America French claims in the Ohio Valley were accepted, though the British Thirteen Colonies were able to solidfy their immediate claims. Nova Scotia was ceded to France along with British Guyana in exchange for France not getting the Austrian Netherlands. British Belize was ceded to Spain and Barbados to France.

The Treaty of Rotterdam was widely unpopular in Britain. The Duke of Newcastle was forced to resign following a backlash explosion in Parliament, and Pitt was back in charge. The new king, George III, was resented for signing the treaty in order to save Hannover. His influence was greatly diminished and Pitt's Parliament began to distance itself from Hannoverian politics, arguing for 'Britain first'.

The major lasting impact of the treaty would be in North America however. The British colonial subjects and the redcoat garrisons eyed the French surrounding them with fear and suspicion. Pro-British Indian tribes, now in French territory, continued to wage a guerrilla campaign against the French supplied and aided by Britain and the colonies.
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[MNP]

You make some good points. However I think I will probably leave the treaty as is. We could have a whole thread dedicated to the terms of the treaty but I think its pretty beliavable as is, which is after all the whole point. I'll try and get an update done either today or tomorrow.

Also, what could be more natural for starting the next war than fears of a rising Saxony power if they get too aggressive.

 

[Vitruvius]

Looks good just, but I have just one criticism. There was no British Guiana in the 1760's. At that time modern day Guyana and Suriname were both under the control of the Dutch. The British seized a portion of Dutch Guiana in 1796 which then became British Guiana. I think the French could do without it considering everything else they've got, though they could always demand St Kitts and Nevis, which they lost in 1713. Also I'm assuming that France keeps Grenada, St Vincent and Dominica which they held OTL until they lost them to the British in 1763. So with Barbados and their OTL possessions the French have the majority of the lesser Antilles. French control of these profit centers will surely help their finances over the next few decades.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

I think Louis XV won't have such a bad legacy TTL, but it's too late for him to be viewed as great or greater than his great-grandfather.

 

[Direwolf22]

Also, what could be more natural for starting the next war than fears of a rising Saxony power if they get too aggressive.

Yes Saxony will most definately be an issue in this TL. The Austrians will regret the strengthening of the Saxons.

Looks good just, but I have just one criticism. There was no British Guiana in the 1760's. At that time modern day Guyana and Suriname were both under the control of the Dutch. The British seized a portion of Dutch Guiana in 1796 which then became British Guiana. I think the French could do without it considering everything else they've got, though they could always demand St Kitts and Nevis, which they lost in 1713. Also I'm assuming that France keeps Grenada, St Vincent and Dominica which they held OTL until they lost them to the British in 1763. So with Barbados and their OTL possessions the French have the majority of the lesser Antilles. French control of these profit centers will surely help their finances over the next few decades.

Yeah I wasn't sure about Guiana, I just took the map from this site's wiki, I'll change it later. Definately, with Barbados and their other territories France is much stronger, wealthier and more unified than OTL; which will have some interesting results come 1789.

I think Louis XV won't have such a bad legacy TTL, but it's too late for him to be viewed as great or greater than his great-grandfather.

Mhmm the monarchy will be more popular than OTL and stronger. Whether his son can maintain this status will be the issue.

I hope to write a bigger update soon which will cover events in Italy and Poland.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Yes Saxony will most definately be an issue in this TL. The Austrians will regret the strengthening of the Saxons.

To replace a foe with another rival is a rather dumb move.

Mhmm the monarchy will be more popular than OTL and stronger. Whether his son can maintain this status will be the issue.

I hope to write a bigger update soon which will cover events in Italy and Poland.

You've butterflied away Louis the Dauphin's death TTL from tuberculosis, right?

 

[Direwolf22]

To replace a foe with another rival is a rather dumb move.

You've butterflied away Louis the Dauphin's death TTL from tuberculosis, right?

Yeah I know, silly Austrians. I'm not sure but I probably will keep him alive. Will make things much more interesting in a few decades.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Yeah I know, silly Austrians. I'm not sure but I probably will keep him alive. Will make things much more interesting in a few decades.

One important effect is that OTL Louis XVI (likely to be TTL Louis XVII) would be more prepared to handle the challenges of running a great power. Of course, he might end up similarly to OTL, where he'd prefer tinkering with clocks.

 

[Vitruvius]

Speaking of people dying -or not- in the French Royal family what about the Duke of Burgundy the Dauphin's eldest son and OTL Louis XVI's older brother. I believe he died from injuries sustained in a nasty fall in 1760 after you POD. Will he be sticking around as well? Could be a very different cast of characters at Versailles.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Speaking of people dying -or not- in the French Royal family what about the Duke of Burgundy the Dauphin's eldest son and OTL Louis XVI's older brother. I believe he died from injuries sustained in a nasty fall in 1760 after you POD. Will he be sticking around as well? Could be a very different cast of characters at Versailles.

I'd think that he could survive, but his disabilities would make the succession rather thorny.

Of course he still could predecease his father.