Disaster at Leuthen TL - Frederick the Great dies in battle

If the Habsburgs play their cards right, they'd alternate between the two, so neither become too strong to challenge Austrian authority.

Of course, in OTL Prussia was simply too strong.

Absolutely.

Question is now whether the Saxons accept the alliance to Poniatowski. That should see the first direct Austrian meddling - Austria should be against renewing the personal union between Saxony and Poland.

Next question would be who the union of Bar chooses as king. There's always a Hapsburg available, right? Good catholic stock, bringing in at least the friendly neutrality of Austria.


Exactly. The Hapsburgs aren't stupid. Their plan now is to play Saxony and Prussia against each other while they gain power in the south and in Italy.

Saxony-Poland-Lithuania would be a legitimate threat to Habsburg interests, so it would indeed make the Austrians favor an older rival.

Yeah the Austrians, like the Prussians, are not keen on a Saxon-Polish super state so this will push Prussia and Austria together, to an extent at least.

I'm curious to see who the Confederates choose to support as King. Seems like anyone they pick is going to drag another power into the war. What about a French candidate? In the past they proffered the Prince of Conti as candidate and he's still around, if a little old. Or maybe the Duke of Parma since he never got his Kingdom in the Austrian Netherlands.

I assume Catherine came to power in Russia more or less as in OTL. And I'm assuming that Joseph II is still sharing power in the Austrian domains with his mother Maria Theresa. I could definitely see some inconsistent foreign policy coming out of Austria.

There is varying support for a bunch of different candidates. Although a French monarch is favoured over an Austrian due obviously to the Austro-Polish rivalry. There is also a significant portion of the Confederates who think its time for Poland to have a Polish king. So it will be interesting to see how, if, the Confederates can come together and decide on a monarch.
 
The Third War of Polish Succession
(1768-1772)
Part II

There was fierce debate within Saxony over whether or not to accept Stanislaw’s offer. Those against thought it might antagonize the Austrians and suck Saxony into a war they didn’t want. Those in favour saw it as a way to ensure Saxony’s independence and possibly expand their power in Germany. In the end the possibility of a Saxon-Polish union, and not to mention Frederick Christian’s own personal ambition, meant that the Saxon government decided to accept the offer. Saxony declared war on Prussia and the Ottoman Empire soon after and mobilized. The Prussians reacted quickly, and began assembling an army in Brandenburg under the command of Charles William Ferdinand, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel. In Vienna there was much division on what course of action to take. Some argued for intervention against Prussia and the Confederates and honour the old alliance with Russia, others, including Empress Maria Theresa, believed that neutrality was the best option, a powerful Saxony and a Russian dominated Poland-Lithuania were seen as a much greater threat, especially now with Prussia weakened. In the end, the Hapsburgs opted for neutrality, at least for now.

Throughout early and mid 1769 the Confederates achieved many successes against the Loyalist and Russian forces. They managed to gain control over much of the west and south of the country. The Russians were being increasingly distracted by the Ottoman front and their support for Stanislaw was not as forthcoming as was needed. In June 1769 the Saxons invaded Prussia. A second Saxon army meanwhile was being assembled in the west, in Saxony’s new German territories. By early August the Prussian eastern army had re-occupied all of Eastern Prussia, the populace there overwhelmingly supporting the Prussian return. When news arrived of the Saxon invasion however, General Mollendorf decided drastic action was required. He sent several messages to Confederate forces in the south and then, leaving a small force to continue the siege of still holding Konigsberg, turned south recruiting some local militia as he went.

The Saxon invasion force made good ground as the Prussian hurried to counter the threat. The goal of the Saxon army was clear: Berlin. The Prussians manage to pull themselves together in time and headed out to stop the Saxon offensive before it got to the capital. On August 15th 1769 the two armies met at the Battle of Potsdam, southeast of Berlin. The Saxon force, approx. 65,000 tried to break through the Prussians, 55,000, and head for Berlin. After three failed Saxon infantry attacks up the centre, the Prussians were wavering. The Saxons were preparing for a fourth and final attack, when a Prussian cavalry attack smashed into their right flank. Led by the Hussar officer, Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher, the surprise offensive panicked the disorganised Saxons and their army soon turned to rout, cut down as they fled. The battle was a major success, Blücher was promoted to Major for his part in the battle, and it was a major turning point in the war.

Prussian soldiers at Potsdam:
Zvezda+Prussian+Grenadiers.JPG


In Poland however Mollendorf’s plan was bearing fruit. In early 1770 Mollendorf’s 60,000 Prussians marched quickly south from East Prussia and a Confederate attack from Krakow encircled the capital Warsaw and placed the King under siege. King Stanislaw was captured by the sudden allied offensive and the surviving Loyalist forces were either forced to surrender or flee to the east. The Russians meanwhile were finding themselves hard pressed on two fronts. A series of naval battles saw the Ottoman Fleet (which was advised by British naval experts, as London was determined to prevent Russian gains) defeat the Russian Baltic Fleet which had moved to the Mediterranean and force them to withdraw back to Russia. In early 1771 a Russian offensive south from Courland was halted by a Prussian/Confederate force and repulsed. Things turned for bad to worse for the Russians and Saxons. The new King Gustav III of Sweden, decided the moment was right to retake old Swedish lands, and invaded Russian Karelia in August. The Prussian army, victorious at Potsdam headed southwest into Saxony, now under the command of Major Blucher, Duke Charles having been injured in the previous battle. In November the Saxon western army, hurried eastward, met the Prussians west of Dresden, at Dobeln. The superior Prussians eventually broke the Saxon attack and won the battle. However, the Prussian casualties were too heavy to risk a drive on Dresden and Blücher ordered a withdrawal back to Prussia. In early 1772 King Stanislaw, still a captive, formally abdicated. The abdication took the wind out of the pro-war faction in Vienna, and the Austrians offered to mediate and end the war, the fear being now that continued war would benefit the Prussians, who were reforming for an invasion of Saxony. With Stanislaw’s abdication and the Austrian offer, the Russians, beset on three sides decided to throw in the towel, the Saxons following suit.

The following Treaty of Vienna (1773) was the result of much haggling and debate. The Prussians pushed for Saxon territory, but the Austrians were determined to maintain a balance between the two north German states, and in the end the Prussians were forced to accept financial indeminites instead of territory rather than risk war with the Hapsburgs. The Russians were forced to officialy recognsie the Crimea as Ottoman and renounce any claim to it, it being officialy absorbed into the Ottoman Empire. East Prussia was returned to Prussia as promised by the Confederates. Sweden also managed to regain some land in Karelia. The main question that dominated proceedings would be who would be the new king of Poland? The Austrians pushed for a Hapsburg candidate, the Prussians for a Hohenzollern, each blocking the other. Some Poles attempted to claim the throne themselves, but they were in turn blocked by others wanting the prize. The Austrians decided to compromise, they wanted an end to the war so they could focus on the troubles taking place in Italy[1]. In the end the only candidate agreeable was from a neutral party: in this case France. The second son of the current Dauphin of France[2] was chosen. A Bourbon king was acceptable to the Poles, he was a Catholic and wasn’t Russian, and was acceptable to the Prussians and Austrians because he wasn’t from the other. In addition he was the son of Maria Josepha of Saxony, wife of the Dauphin, who was the daughter of the old Polish king Augustus III who preceded Stanislaw. After officially renouncing any claims to the French or Saxon thrones, an Austrian insistence, the eighteen year old was crowned King Louis I[3] of Poland-Lithuania. The Prussians had regained their pride, the Poles regained their kingdom, the Saxons regained their fear, the Ottomans regained Crimea, the Swedes regained Karelia but most importanly of all the Russians regained their distrust of the Austrians, their allies who abandoned them.

Louis I of Poland-Lithuania:
JoungLouisXVIII.jpg

[1] See next update
[2] OTL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis,_Dauphin_of_France_%281729-1765%29
[3] OTL Louis XVIII of France

 
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Valois? Aren't the Bourbons currently ruling France? :rolleyes:

But the touch of OTL Louis XVIII becoming King of Poland is interesting; there's historical precedent after all.

Also, has this guy survived?
 
Valois? Aren't the Bourbons currently ruling France? :rolleyes:

But the touch of OTL Louis XVIII becoming King of Poland is interesting; there's historical precedent after all.

Also, has this guy survived?


Haha oops changed that. I toyed with the idea of keeping him alive. But I think since the fall was before my POD I decided to keep him dead. Plus this way there's less royals running around to deal with.
 
Yup. So he will end up being Louis XVII and his father the XVI. That is, of course, if the monarchy survives till then.

Although it is true that Louis XV isn't the best ruler, he does have the increased popularity from winning the war against Britain. And if his successors have a more prudent financial policy (it was OTL Louis XVI's support of the ARW that contributed to the decline of the royal treasury, as well as a lot of stuff that happened to hit France at a rather bad time), then the Revolution can be butterflied away, or more accurately moderated (i.e., French constitutional monarchy? ;))
 
Although it is true that Louis XV isn't the best ruler, he does have the increased popularity from winning the war against Britain. And if his successors have a more prudent financial policy (it was OTL Louis XVI's support of the ARW that contributed to the decline of the royal treasury, as well as a lot of stuff that happened to hit France at a rather bad time), then the Revolution can be butterflied away, or more accurately moderated (i.e., French constitutional monarchy? ;))

Mhmm this Louis XVI will be more willing to adapt than our OTL friend. Don't worry I have some very interesting plans for the revolution, that I think may surprise you.

I guess, but I assume that all other powers, especially Austria, Russia and Prussia will demand that he renounces the Polish if he becomes king of France...

His brother is King of Poland not him. So you will have elder Louis in France and younger Louis in Poland. Both renouncing claims to the other.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I don't understand this battle. Why do the British advise the Ottomans, when in OTL they helped build and train the Russian fleet to destroy the Turks?

Where did the Poles get a military? Without silesia, how can Prussia afford an army?

A Bourbon monarch is of course the worst scenario for the Brits...
 
Mhmm this Louis XVI will be more willing to adapt than our OTL friend. Don't worry I have some very interesting plans for the revolution, that I think may surprise you.



His brother is King of Poland not him. So you will have elder Louis in France and younger Louis in Poland. Both renouncing claims to the other.

Yes, but in case the king of Poland would be or become the heir of France, because a lack of heirs. And I was asking about such a situation. All other European Great Power (Britain, Spain, Austria, Prussia, Saxony, Dutch Republic, Sweden, DEnmark etc.) would object to a French Polish union, so they would want a treaty which prevents this.
 
I don't understand this battle. Why do the British advise the Ottomans, when in OTL they helped build and train the Russian fleet to destroy the Turks?

Where did the Poles get a military? Without silesia, how can Prussia afford an army?

A Bourbon monarch is of course the worst scenario for the Brits...


The Brits in this TL are more pro-Turk than pro-Russian, as Russia was against them in the 4 Years War, and its always been a British goal to keep the Turks strong to keep the Russians out of the med. Hence the whole Crimean War.

The Poles have a decent army. It's obviously not great and would have been annihlated by the Russians if it wasnt for the Prussians, Ottomans and Swedes.

Prussia had an army before it took Silesia, obviously though ITTL their army is not gonna be as large as it was in OTL, hence the difficulties in taking over Saxony. For example, it will never be able to maintain the size of force it had in the Napoleonic Wars without Silesia, but it can still outfight Saxony, just.

The Brits aren't overly happy with the Bourbon monarch in Poland but no one was really that bothered about their view. The British suggested a Hannoverian prince, but that was opposed by Austria and Russia. The whole idea is compromise.

Yes, but in case the king of Poland would be or become the heir of France, because a lack of heirs. And I was asking about such a situation. All other European Great Power (Britain, Spain, Austria, Prussia, Saxony, Dutch Republic, Sweden, DEnmark etc.) would object to a French Polish union, so they would want a treaty which prevents this.

Yeah I see your point. When he renounced claims to the French throne and vice versa, that included all his decendents. No power will let France and Poland be ruled by the same monarch. and remember the Polish king is elected so it is not necessarily going to be a Bourbon succession.
 
Yeah I see your point. When he renounced claims to the French throne and vice versa, that included all his decendents. No power will let France and Poland be ruled by the same monarch. and remember the Polish king is elected so it is not necessarily going to be a Bourbon succession.

That's the biggest thing people forget, actually. Louis-Stanislas could be king of Poland, and his elder brother Louis-Auguste be king of France one day, but since the former is elective and the latter isn't the succession is more of an issue of "whose candidate has stronger backers", which was the case in the 18th century.

The funny thing, of course, is that Louis-Stanislas (OTL Louis XVIII) becomes king before his brother does. Kind of like how Philip V of Spain was king and his elder brother wasn't.
 
That's the biggest thing people forget, actually. Louis-Stanislas could be king of Poland, and his elder brother Louis-Auguste be king of France one day, but since the former is elective and the latter isn't the succession is more of an issue of "whose candidate has stronger backers", which was the case in the 18th century.

The funny thing, of course, is that Louis-Stanislas (OTL Louis XVIII) becomes king before his brother does. Kind of like how Philip V of Spain was king and his elder brother wasn't.

it may not be elective now, but I expect the whole affair is going to spark a round of political reform within P-L just as it did OTL, one of those reforms could well be a hereditary constitutional monarchy. You could still get some kind of interim move towards the constitution of 1791.

Obviously there have been no partitions but dependence on Prussia, an outside power to avert complete Russian domination, must be telling.
 
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That's the biggest thing people forget, actually. Louis-Stanislas could be king of Poland, and his elder brother Louis-Auguste be king of France one day, but since the former is elective and the latter isn't the succession is more of an issue of "whose candidate has stronger backers", which was the case in the 18th century.

The funny thing, of course, is that Louis-Stanislas (OTL Louis XVIII) becomes king before his brother does. Kind of like how Philip V of Spain was king and his elder brother wasn't.

Exactly. The younger outshining the brother in this case. though i doubt Louis was too happy about being sent off to be king of Poland. It's basically sibling rivalry... with countries.

it may not be elective now, but I expect the whole affair is going to spark a round of political reform within P-L just as it did OTL, one of those reforms could well be a hereditary constitutional monarchy. You could still get some kind of interim move towards the constitution of 1791.

Obviously there have been no partitions but dependence on Prussia, an outside power to avert complete Russian domination, must be telling.

Yes definately. The Poles are gonna have some reforms, the monarchy will be strengthened as this was seen as the major reason for Poland's decline. Though the nobles wont give up their electoral rights without a fight. Prussia does have a strong influence in Poland, but it does not dominate it like Russia did, thats the important distinction; at least not yet anyway.
 
IIRC, the Poles were already in the process of reforming when the surrounding powers decided that Poland was a joke anyway (which, after the First Partition, it likely was) and decided to do the Second Partition. Austria backed out of the second because it didn't see the sense.
 
IIRC, the Poles were already in the process of reforming when the surrounding powers decided that Poland was a joke anyway (which, after the First Partition, it likely was) and decided to do the Second Partition. Austria backed out of the second because it didn't see the sense.

Mhmm and in this TL they've got a nice bit of breathing space to get down to some serious reforming.

How lucky were the Bourbons... :mad:

And now you made me side with Prussia, i hope it defeats Austria again ;)

Yeah things are looking quite good for them, at the moment anyway...

It will get its chance eventually. Though its no match for the Hapsburgs at the minute. The tri-party Germany stand off will continue for a while.
 
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