Different Versailles Treaty

Deleted member 1487

Dont be fooled, the Hungarian people also wanted a huge country. It was sth that all nationes without their own country wanted. A huge, romantic state that has imperial power and prestige (ex. Greater Serbia, Greater Croatia, Greater Slovenia, Greater (insert name here)...). Im not sure if reason would overcome these dreams, but the Hungarians of that time considered the Treaty of Trianon as theft of their "national territory", despite the fact Hungarians were vastly outnumbered minorities in these perticular areas.


Don't confuse the Hungarian people with the Hungarian political leadership. There were some of the peasantry that were fooled by the trappings of empire, thinking that the glory of the nation was their aggrandizement, but an increasing number, jumped up by the war, realized that they were being exploited by their nobility. By the end of the war OTL they realized that a nation under their leaders was not an option, which resulted in the deaths of a large percentage of the notables in the country. If the groups run by Tisza declared an end to the empire and a breaking off, they were dead men walking. Then the Romanians come (depending on POD), and for sure the Habsburgs. The Austrians will bring promises of wider franchise (something the Hungarian nobility had been squashing- they were already forced to rig votes and intimidate voters as it was, any increase in franchise means they lose their stranglehold on the nation instantly) and perhaps even free land for veterans (really a land redistribution from the defeated nobility), which would endear them to a large part of the population.
 
Don't confuse the Hungarian people with the Hungarian political leadership. There were some of the peasantry that were fooled by the trappings of empire, thinking that the glory of the nation was their aggrandizement, but an increasing number, jumped up by the war, realized that they were being exploited by their nobility. By the end of the war OTL they realized that a nation under their leaders was not an option, which resulted in the deaths of a large percentage of the notables in the country. If the groups run by Tisza declared an end to the empire and a breaking off, they were dead men walking. Then the Romanians come (depending on POD), and for sure the Habsburgs. The Austrians will bring promises of wider franchise (something the Hungarian nobility had been squashing- they were already forced to rig votes and intimidate voters as it was, any increase in franchise means they lose their stranglehold on the nation instantly) and perhaps even free land for veterans (really a land redistribution from the defeated nobility), which would endear them to a large part of the population.

This was all doe to them losing the war. Which is not the case here.
 

Deleted member 1487

This was all doe to them losing the war. Which is not the case here.


Not as much as you might think. There was a building movement of socialists that were actively being quite brutally suppressed by Tizsa's thugs. Before the war they existed and were winning elections, only to have them stolen in vote rigging, intimidation, and violence. The war advanced this movement, as the peasantry finally realized they were sacrificing while the upper class was benefiting from their bloodshed. The 'loss', which they really hadn't until the very end against Italy, didn't really have much to do with it. The lack of food and large casualty lists that were filled out by the lower classes had more to do with it. They wanted a reward for their sacrifices and the only ones promising it were the communists/socialist. The men that killed Tizsa were soldiers, part of a movement furious that he was engineering a dictatorship with his political cronies. It helped that many of the men captured during the war and later released were exposed to Bolshevik propaganda, which made them more politically aware. Soldier's councils were a vital part of the communist revolution in Hungary. Any arrangement that would mean an independent Hungary is going to have to liberalize regardless of victory of defeat (though a victory would put that much more pressure on the nobility to liberalize the nation, as the people want a reward for their sacrifice), otherwise radicals are going to rise up and the population as a whole has no love for the upper class.
 
Not as much as you might think. There was a building movement of socialists that were actively being quite brutally suppressed by Tizsa's thugs. Before the war they existed and were winning elections, only to have them stolen in vote rigging, intimidation, and violence. The war advanced this movement, as the peasantry finally realized they were sacrificing while the upper class was benefiting from their bloodshed. The 'loss', which they really hadn't until the very end against Italy, didn't really have much to do with it. The lack of food and large casualty lists that were filled out by the lower classes had more to do with it. They wanted a reward for their sacrifices and the only ones promising it were the communists/socialist. The men that killed Tizsa were soldiers, part of a movement furious that he was engineering a dictatorship with his political cronies. It helped that many of the men captured during the war and later released were exposed to Bolshevik propaganda, which made them more politically aware. Soldier's councils were a vital part of the communist revolution in Hungary. Any arrangement that would mean an independent Hungary is going to have to liberalize regardless of victory of defeat (though a victory would put that much more pressure on the nobility to liberalize the nation, as the people want a reward for their sacrifice), otherwise radicals are going to rise up and the population as a whole has no love for the upper class.

In the case of a victorious CP, I think its a pretty safe bet things didnt work out quite like this.


But lets take your ex. into consideration. So Hungary accepts the inevitable loss of territory just like that. The AH gets federalised. So how do we make the Italians side with the CP? I doubt only Trentino will do the trick, and the new and improved AH isnt going to let the Italians have Istria and Dalmatia.
 

Deleted member 1487

In the case of a victorious CP, I think its a pretty safe bet things didnt work out quite like this.


But lets take your ex. into consideration. So Hungary accepts the inevitable loss of territory just like that. The AH gets federalised. So how do we make the Italians side with the CP? I doubt only Trentino will do the trick, and the new and improved AH isnt going to let the Italians have Istria and Dalmatia.


I didn't say that the Hungarians would accept the Austrians federalizing the empire. In fact, even given a "victory", they would probably try to break away at some point before the Germans were disengaged from the Western Front. Depending on the POD there are several problems that are going to arise. Romania, as I alluded to before, the Poles, who are coveting Galicia, the Ukrainians, for the same reason, and depending on how the Habsburgs handle the last two, there could be much stronger separatist movement in the province, similar to how the Galician Poles reacted to the Habsburgs giving away mixed lands to the Ukrainians for promises of grain.

Civil war is the most likely fate of the Habsburg empire, which I stated before. The Austrians are not going to let the Hungarians go easily, hence the war when they try to part. This is going to be on top of the civil war within Hungary for control of the nation. The Croatians, Bosnians (I know, not technically part of Hungary), and Slovaks are going to break off at first opportunity from Hungary, which leaves the Czechs as the only other major ethnic group to get on board the Austrian side.

Without an Entente victory, they will play ball, but they are going to get a steep price, which the Czech Germans are going to revile. The question is: what happens to Sudentenland? I think the Austrians are not going to let that one go, which is going to result in some "fun" negotiations with the Czechs over political and linguistics rights. The Austrians can play hardball to a point, knowing Germany is waiting on the wings to help them out, but for a price, which of course the Austrian would not like and have to keep on the down low to prevent the Czechs from using it in negotiation.

The Conservatives in Austria are going to pitch a fit over the whole thing, considering Emperor Karl a betrayer of their hard-won victory.

Essentially, the empire is going to stay together at the point of a bayonet, but will heal together after a while. In the short term, it will be a gigantic cluster fuck that I don't think Karl is going to play well, which the minorities will exploit for maximum advantage, knowing the alternative is German domination. Its will all be a tightrope walk, each side hating the others, only held together by the threats from the outside.
 

yourworstnightmare

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In the case of a victorious CP, I think its a pretty safe bet things didnt work out quite like this.


But lets take your ex. into consideration. So Hungary accepts the inevitable loss of territory just like that. The AH gets federalised. So how do we make the Italians side with the CP? I doubt only Trentino will do the trick, and the new and improved AH isnt going to let the Italians have Istria and Dalmatia.
Italy would never fight on the same side as Austria- Hungary, they'd either be fight for the Entente, or be neutral.
 
Italy would never fight on the same side as Austria- Hungary, they'd either be fight for the Entente, or be neutral.
Wrong. Italy didn't join the Central Powers because the triple alliance was a defensive alliance. The relations between Austria and Italy before WW1 weren't so bad (mind you, they weren't even really good, though), but they were getting worse because of the austrian policy in the Balkans. IIRC, the alliance had a provision for compensation to Italy in case of austrian expansion into the Balkans region (alas, I'm away from my books). Of course these compensation never materialised...

Plus, they are going to side with the winning side. The Italians do that.
What delicious little piece of racist idiocy...Do tell me, please, joining the entente in 1915 means joining the winning side? Hardly, since the british and the french had trouble to oust the germans from France... Not to mention the absolutely smashing campaign against the turks...
Maybe you were talking about WW2? Pity that the nazist lost, IIRC. So the Fascist. Or maybe you were talking about the aftermath of the 8th September? When the italian state controlled by the allies declared war to Germany, while the italian state controlled by the nazists waged war against the allies...It's called civil war, in case you didn't know.
After that I'm not aware of any other war in which the italians joined the winning side...Maybe because they didn't fought any other war?

So do tell me, what were you thinking about?
 
There is still the question of Serbia. Id imagine that the Bularians would have huge gains, but Im not sure about Kosovo. Would it go to Albania?
 
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Deleted member 1487

They would invade Hungary, just like OTL. They wanted Transylvania and were going to get it, as Hungary by itself was not powerful enough to resist, given that it just fought a world war.
 
They would invade Hungary, just like OTL. They wanted Transylvania and were going to get it, as Hungary by itself was not powerful enough to resist, given that it just fought a world war.

Then in the event of Hungary starting a crisis that leads to the dissolution of the AH, the Romanians could actually get into a position of power...:cool:
 
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