Different Post-Civil War America

[Ellis MacVey]

Okay so this started from a conversation I was having with a friend about the upcoming Victoria 3 and the American Civil War, so sorry if this is a bit disjointed.

This isn't a fully developed TL, a WI, or an AHC, it's just a sort of loose idea I had that I wanted to start about.

The basic premise is, after the Civil War, Andrew Johnson stays away from the presidency, reparations are given to former slaves, and Reconstruction goes on longer and is more successful.

The result I'm thinking is a country where black people are on a much more level playing field with white people. However, not all is well in this world because anti-indigenous, anti-Latin American, and anti-Asian sentiments are more intense and widespread. I'm not saying this definitely or even likely would happen if Reconstruction were more successful, it's just a possibility I thought up as an interesting setting.

I apologize if this thread lacks cohesion, I would just like to see this website's thoughts, ideas, and opinions about this scenario.

 

[Derek Jackson]

I think this can be done? Following the murder of Lincoln (and maybe others) a radical is President. As well as proving for election for new Conventions in the former rebel state by evey LOYAL man. There could be conditions for the non prosecution for Treason. For the former ruling group it would also be accepting the expropriation of lands to provide for former slaves. For all former rebels the provision might include not attempying to undermien the rights of former slaves. The US Constiution might mae proviison forformer slaves to serve on juries and allowing anyone to provide thatanyone might require a judge and any juror not to take part if they has assisted "The late trteasonous renellio

 

[Ellis MacVey]

I think this can be done? Following the murder of Lincoln (and maybe others) a radical is President. As well as proving for election for new Conventions in the former rebel state by evey LOYAL man. There could be conditions for the non prosecution for Treason. For the former ruling group it would also be accepting the expropriation of lands to provide for former slaves. For all former rebels the provision might include not attempying to undermien the rights of former slaves. The US Constiution might mae proviison forformer slaves to serve on juries and allowing anyone to provide thatanyone might require a judge and any juror not to take part if they has assisted "The late trteasonous renellio

Is it just me or does this reply feel a bit unfinished?

I don't mean any disrespect by this

 

[PuffyClouds]

Is it just me or does this reply feel a bit unfinished?

I don't mean any disrespect by this

Yes, some kind of accident happened.

 

[Ellis MacVey]

Yes, some kind of accident happened.

Wait what happened?

 

[Wendell]

It's an interesting idea and not too implausible.

 

[Derek Jackson]

Sorry about my error in not completing my first reply.

However in the Spring and summer of 1865 the rebels had lost and knew it. I think that the threat of prosecution for treason would have been enough for there to have legally (and morally rightly) to have expropriated the planter class.

The guarantee of voting rights for former slaves should have been more clearly written into the consitution. The amnesty / non prosecution of former rebels should be conditional on their not undermining the property, political and civil rights of former slaves and those who had stayed loyal during rebelion

Also changing the composition of juries and using former USCT troops to provide police forces

I think some racisats would choose to leave the South. I also think it would be best for the constituitionsl guarantee of voting rights initially to apply to former confederate states and lands..

As I see it a lot of the problem of the South is that the former ruling group had land but nor the money, If the land was owned by those who worked it.

I think that the black church and that community might well have a strong commitment to education.

I suspect that for some years the typical black person in the North would be the smart school marm.

It would be clear that the old Democratic party could not win elections

Some would join Republicans

Later probably populists would form the seconnd party

 

[BELFAST]

Okay so this started from a conversation I was having with a friend about the upcoming Victoria 3 and the American Civil War, so sorry if this is a bit disjointed.

This isn't a fully developed TL, a WI, or an AHC, it's just a sort of loose idea I had that I wanted to start about.

The basic premise is, after the Civil War, Andrew Johnson stays away from the presidency, reparations are given to former slaves, and Reconstruction goes on longer and is more successful.

The result I'm thinking is a country where black people are on a much more level playing field with white people. However, not all is well in this world because anti-indigenous, anti-Latin American, and anti-Asian sentiments are more intense and widespread. I'm not saying this definitely or even likely would happen if Reconstruction were more successful, it's just a possibility I thought up as an interesting setting.

I apologize if this thread lacks cohesion, I would just like to see this website's thoughts, ideas, and opinions about this scenario.

Reparations that sound more like current politics post-civil war alternative history.
Where would the money come from after the civil war when so much treasure and people had been spent in that conflict.
Why would the USA be interested in giving a better deal to former slaves?
There is also anti-catholic, anti-semitic sentiment too.

 

[ThatAutisticGuy]

Reparations that sound more like current politics post-civil war alternative history.
Where would the money come from after the civil war when so much treasure and people had been spent in that conflict.
Why would the USA be interested in giving a better deal to former slaves?
There is also anti-catholic, anti-semitic sentiment too.

One good example of a more egalitarian America after the Civil War is Until Every Last Drop Of Blood is Paid, long title, but a really interesting look at what if Lincoln became more radical earlier, and it kind of answers this.

Also, reparations aren't always money, Sherman and the Union promised every free slave after the war '40 acres and a mule', which certainly wouldn't be impossible, given that slaveowner's properties were confiscated. Some white Unionists would likely come in and buy up the land, but perhaps the Union is more strict on the laws of who gets it, giving black people their own land, as originally promised. So reparations, in terms of land, is completely possible.

 

[Mikestone8]

The basic premise is, after the Civil War, Andrew Johnson stays away from the presidency, reparations are given to former slaves, and Reconstruction goes on longer and is more successful.

Why should Andrew Johnson's absence have led to any of those other changes?

Indeed, without him would Blacks have even got the *vote*? From what I can gather, the main reason Congress required this was the way Johnson had allowed ex-Rebs to regain power in the South. Take that away and it would probably have been content just to reduce Southern representation as per Section 2 of the 14th Amendment

Sides which, even w/o Johnson, Lincoln would still have been looking for a Democrat as running-mate, preferably a Southern one, to keep Conservative Unionists on board. So Johnson's replacement probably won't be all that different from Johnson himself - less abrasive in style perhaps, but essentially the same in substance.

 

[Mikestone8]

Sherman and the Union promised every free slave after the war '40 acres and a mule',

Sherman made this arrangement in the Sea Islands as a quick way of unloading the army of Black camp followers whom he had attracted while marching to the sea. He promised nothing to any other Blacks, nor did anyone else with the authority to make good on it.

 

[BELFAST]

One good example of a more egalitarian America after the Civil War is Until Every Last Drop Of Blood is Paid, long title, but a really interesting look at what if Lincoln became more radical earlier, and it kind of answers this.

Also, reparations aren't always money, Sherman and the Union promised every free slave after the war '40 acres and a mule', which certainly wouldn't be impossible, given that slaveowner's properties were confiscated. Some white Unionists would likely come in and buy up the land, but perhaps the Union is more strict on the laws of who gets it, giving black people their own land, as originally promised. So reparations, in terms of land, is completely possible.

What is the motivation for the USA to give former slaves a leg up?
The war was fought by the union to preserve the union and suppress the rebellion.
I cannot see the union's motivation for helping former slaves short of ASB.

 

[ThatAutisticGuy]

What is the motivation for the USA to give former slaves a leg up?
The war was fought by the union to preserve the union and suppress the rebellion.
I cannot see the union's motivation for helping former slaves short of ASB.

True, at the beginning, but IRL in the end, it was to end slavery AND save the Union, the goals became one and the same after the EP.

Perhaps the Union would be more radical in terms of race relations? Idk

 

[BELFAST]

True, at the beginning, but IRL in the end, it was to end slavery AND save the Union, the goals became one and the same after the EP.

Perhaps the Union would be more radical in terms of race relations? Idk

What changes their worldview to make them want to compensate former slaves and ensure equal rights for them?
One thing I never understood about the civil war was what was so important about preserving the union and preventing secession.
The USA was founded by people who seceded from the British empire.
Secession movements are not that uncommon around the world some are successful some are not.

 

[ThatAutisticGuy]

What changes their worldview to make them want to compensate former slaves and ensure equal rights for them?
One thing I never understood about the civil war was what was so important about preserving the union and preventing secession.
The USA was founded by people who seceded from the British empire.
Secession movements are not that uncommon around the world some are successful some are not.

Because if the South left, America would fall apart, if the South left, maybe New York would want to leave, then Maine, then Ohio, it was purely national preservation, and also, the South's motive was unjustifiable, due to their seceding for slavery.

 

[BELFAST]

Because if the South left, America would fall apart, if the South left, maybe New York would want to leave, then Maine, then Ohio, it was purely national preservation, and also, the South's motive was unjustifiable, due to their seceding for slavery.

It has happened in other countries like the UK without the rest of the union breaking up after 26 counties in Ireland left the British union.
13 colonies leaving the British empire did not stop the expansion of the British empire.
The only reason I came up with was if the USA divided into the Union and the CSA might be a tempting target for expansion by the imperialist powers in Europe. This could end the experiment in Republican government in America and make it look like idea of a republic with a written constitution, sepation of powers etc seem like a failed experiment around the world.

that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Address#Text

It seem to me that the union feared the end of repseretive government if the CSA become independent.

 

[ThatAutisticGuy]

It has happened in other countries like the UK without the rest of the union breaking up after 26 counties in Ireland left the British union.
13 colonies leaving the British empire did not stop the expansion of the British empire.
The only reason I came up with was if the USA divided into the Union and the CSA might be a tempting target for expansion by the imperialist powers in Europe. This could end the experiment in Republican government in America and make it look like idea of a republic with a written constitution, sepation of powers etc seem like a failed experiment around the world.

America in the 1860s is FAR different than England during the Easter Rising, it's definitely more divided on states line, with a majority of people saying they're "I'm from Ohio" moreso than "I'm American" so it's entirely possible (but not definente) that the Union would collapse in some form

 

[BELFAST]

America in the 1860s is FAR different than England during the Easter Rising, it's definitely more divided on states line, with a majority of people saying they're "I'm from Ohio" moreso than "I'm American" so it's entirely possible (but not definente) that the Union would collapse in some form

Was it worth the money, loss of life and destruction of property to prevent any states from leaving the union then or in the future?

Civil War Casualties

Roughly 2% of the population, an estimated 620,000 men, lost their lives in the line of duty during the Civil War. Taken as a percentage of today's population, the toll would have risen as high as 6 million souls.

www.battlefields.org

 

[ThatAutisticGuy]

Was it worth the money, loss of life and destruction of property to prevent any states from leaving the union then or in the future?

Civil War Casualties

Roughly 2% of the population, an estimated 620,000 men, lost their lives in the line of duty during the Civil War. Taken as a percentage of today's population, the toll would have risen as high as 6 million souls.

www.battlefields.org

Yes, because it ended slavery and saved the Union, in the short term, devastating and tragic, long term, best option the Union had, those deaths were tragic, but the ends justify the means

 

[Slime_blob]

I think what would be best for African Americans is if either they go to Liberia/Haiti or found a new Colony preferabbly in my opinion the Congos river basin or in simple terms in the Location of the Congo Free State so they would be there instead of Leopold of Belgium and have a better life there free from discrimination and etc. The colony being more well funded and supported by the US government so less deaths from disease and etc would happen. Later becoming their own republic