Different German boundaries. Post-WW2

What if the Soviets allowed East Germany to keep the land lost to Poland excluding East Prussia? Consequently a Modern Germany would have it's Weimar boundaries minus East Prussia.
 
What if the Soviets allowed East Germany to keep the land lost to Poland excluding East Prussia? Consequently a Modern Germany would have it's Weimar boundaries minus East Prussia.

Not all that hard to do, I would think. In fact, I am still kind of surprised that Germany did lose Silesia and eastern Pomerania.
 
Wouldn't that require Soviets return Eastern Poland? IIRC those lands were given to Poland as a compensation for lands lost in the east.
 
Wouldn't that require Soviets return Eastern Poland? IIRC those lands were given to Poland as a compensation for lands lost in the east.
This is the sovjet union and Stalin we are talking about, I doubt they really cared that much about Poland. It was more of a way to decrease German power than reward/help/compensate Poland.

My guess the best way for Germany to keep Silesia and Pommerania would be to give the soviet union a smaller piece of Germany after the war. If the Sovjet Union did worse* than the western allies during war and the border between the western allied occupied zone and the Sovjet occupied zone lies farther to the east (with Thuringen, Saxony-Anhalt, Mecklenburg, (part of) Saxony and the western part of Brandenburg in the western occupied zone), the parts that the Soviet Union occupies is too small to form an "independent" nation, so it decides to let it have Silesia and Pommerenia. Poland would have to be satisfied with (part of) East Prussia and maybe small border corrections in the east.


*Or maybe France (or Canada) are considered equal allies from the start and get their own occupation zone, instead of France getting some from the British and American zones and Canada getting none.
 
Originally posted by pompejus
This is the sovjet union and Stalin we are talking about, I doubt they really cared that much about Poland. It was more of a way to decrease German power than reward/help/compensate Poland.

Stalin didn't care about Poland but at least officially Poland was Soviet ally, with pro-Communist Polish government and an army. Poland with OTL post-WW2 eastern border and pre-WW2 western border would have been a rump state, even with East Prussia added. That would have made Poles even more pissed of with USSR as they were and communist government in Poland would have been extremely unpopular. Propaganda value of giving Poland a very big chunk of wealthy and well developed lands is not to be underestimated.

Or maybe France (or Canada) are considered equal allies from the start and get their own occupation zone, instead of France getting some from the British and American zones and Canada getting none.

I do not believe Stalin would have agreed to give a part of Soviet-controlled territory to Canada or France. If they want their own occupation zone, they can get it from US and UK - USSR will not step back.
 
I do not believe Stalin would have agreed to give a part of Soviet-controlled territory to Canada or France. If they want their own occupation zone, they can get it from US and UK - USSR will not step back.
You understood me wrong. The Sovjet Union wouldn't give part of Soviet occupied Germany to France or Canada, but (free) France and Canada would have been part of the negotiations from the start and were given an equal share, like the rest of the negotiators, thus limiting the part the Soviet Union would get. Instead of 1/3, now the Sovjet union get 1/4, like all countries during the negotiations (or 1/5 if both France or Canada were present). For this to work I assume you would need France to continue fighting from the start, so no Vichi France.
 
If Western Germany had up to the Elbe as the entire border or something? The WAllies had occupied up to the Elbe and so Truman could be stubborn and demand the Elbe be the new border. Thus Stalin allows East Germany its 1939 borders to combat the very powerful Western Germany.
 
You understood me wrong. The Sovjet Union wouldn't give part of Soviet occupied Germany to France or Canada, but (free) France and Canada would have been part of the negotiations from the start and were given an equal share, like the rest of the negotiators, thus limiting the part the Soviet Union would get. Instead of 1/3, now the Sovjet union get 1/4, like all countries during the negotiations (or 1/5 if both France or Canada were present). For this to work I assume you would need France to continue fighting from the start, so no Vichi France.

AFAIK, the Soviets didn't give up any territory to France IOTL, but the Western allies ceded parts of their occupation zones to France. Taking the Canadians in wouldn't change that. To really get more and smaller occupation zones, you'd need to change negotiations early on, at a time where France would hardly be considered as equal - not to mention Canada.
 
AFAIK, the Soviets didn't give up any territory to France IOTL, but the Western allies ceded parts of their occupation zones to France. Taking the Canadians in wouldn't change that. To really get more and smaller occupation zones, you'd need to change negotiations early on, at a time where France would hardly be considered as equal - not to mention Canada.
That is exactly what I meant.
 
What if the Soviets allowed East Germany to keep the land lost to Poland excluding East Prussia? Consequently a Modern Germany would have it's Weimar boundaries minus East Prussia.

This is not going to happen. Even if the Eastern Front went much, much worse, the Soviets would still demand the same amount of land because of their "blood sacrifice". Also bear in mind that the WAllies aren't occupying anywhere until post-Overlord, an operation that, if successful, virtually ensures trhat the Russians will at least get to Warsaw, even if by some ASBness they were still fighting outside Moscow in 1944.

Churchill (and to some extent, Roosevelt) wished for Germany to retain parts of Silesia west of the Oder, arguing that giving it to Poland would mean there were too many Germans in Poland. Stalin inisisted that this area be given to the Poles so he had somewhere to put the millions he was displacing from Wilno, Lvov etc. As for Pommerania/West Prussia, both Churchill and Stalin agreed that theses "Prussian" areas east of the Oder should be detached from Germany as they were seen as the catalyst for German agression, so thay're not going to be retained, even if the WAllies liberated everything west of Minsk.
 
Wouldn't that require Soviets return Eastern Poland? IIRC those lands were given to Poland as a compensation for lands lost in the east.

Correct. The USSR wasn't about to hand back the areas of eastern Poland they incorporated into the USSR. Moving Poland's western border to the west to compenase for this loss made the border adjustment palatable to the western allies, who might otherwise have raised more of a fuss. And who cares what Germans thought? In 1945, the allies could care less what this did to Germans after what they did to the rest of Europe.
 
Correct. The USSR wasn't about to hand back the areas of eastern Poland they incorporated into the USSR. Moving Poland's western border to the west to compenase for this loss made the border adjustment palatable to the western allies, who might otherwise have raised more of a fuss. And who cares what Germans thought? In 1945, the allies could care less what this did to Germans after what they did to the rest of Europe.
But let's say the Western Allies took more of Germany to create West Germany, say up to the Elbe (where they were occupying IOTL). At this point Stalin will make East Germany far bigger in an attempt to combat this more powerful West Germany, say 1939 borders.

Now whilst the westerners are going to gripe about it, I doubt they'd actually go to war. I mean yes, the Americans had nukes, and yes, there were plans to possibly attack the Soviets post-war. However over what is essentially a minor issue, the Allies won't go to war with each other. The fact is they're all spent, economically and socially, the sides may play a game of chicken but the Soviets have the upper-hand, and the Western Allies would be forced to back-off. I doubt Truman would light-up Moscow simply to ensure Germany has smaller borders than it did in 1938.

Also, there may've been plans for war, but in most circumstances there are plans for wars between nations, just look at War Plan Red. The USA and Britain, two nations that were getting along quite well in the inter-war period, and yet the former makes a plan in case of war with Britain.
 
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