Differences between precision guided munitions?

Wendigo

Banned
Is there a discernable difference between laser guided bombs and JDAMs besides the way they are targeted?

Which ones are more effective/deadly?

How true is the whole "So accurate you can drop one and have it hit an individual window in a building" expression?

Are PGMs used more often than dumb bombs?
 
Is there a discernable difference between laser guided bombs and JDAMs besides the way they are targeted?

Which ones are more effective/deadly?

How true is the whole "So accurate you can drop one and have it hit an individual window in a building" expression?

Are PGMs used more often than dumb bombs?

No, they are both guidance mechanisms for Mk80 series bombs.

Very true, the last time I looked into it ages ago the CEP for an LGB was 3 or so metres and a GPS guided bomb was 7 metres which was considered poor and due for a major upgrade. A CEP of 2 or 3 metres is certainly small enough for a window, elevator shaft or air-conditioning duct of your typical big building.

Yes, the 1991 PGW the ratio was 10% smart bombs, but 'tank plinking' with F111F and F15E showed that despite the cost of the LGBs the missions were cheap overall; one F111F was getting 4 tank kills per mission and the squadron might be racking up 40-50 per day, and when looking at the effort required to get this by other means such as A10 gun//maverick missions this was cheap. These days I think close to 100% of bombs are guided for this reason, this is why a USN carrier today is more effective than it was in 1991, its Hornet/Super Hornet squadrons are racking up massive kill numbers with a comparative handful of bombs in a handful of missions.
 
No, they are both guidance mechanisms for Mk80 series bombs.

Very true, the last time I looked into it ages ago the CEP for an LGB was 3 or so metres and a GPS guided bomb was 7 metres which was considered poor and due for a major upgrade. A CEP of 2 or 3 metres is certainly small enough for a window, elevator shaft or air-conditioning duct of your typical big building.

Yes, the 1991 PGW the ratio was 10% smart bombs, but 'tank plinking' with F111F and F15E showed that despite the cost of the LGBs the missions were cheap overall; one F111F was getting 4 tank kills per mission and the squadron might be racking up 40-50 per day, and when looking at the effort required to get this by other means such as A10 gun//maverick missions this was cheap. These days I think close to 100% of bombs are guided for this reason, this is why a USN carrier today is more effective than it was in 1991, its Hornet/Super Hornet squadrons are racking up massive kill numbers with a comparative handful of bombs in a handful of missions.

There is also weapons like Brimstone II which allows the mission to use a 'human in the loop' control with a relatively small warhead allowing a pilot to 'snipe' targets from up to 60 km away

Useful where modern governments are Risk adverse in terms of Friendly and Civilian losses
 
There is also weapons like Brimstone II which allows the mission to use a 'human in the loop' control with a relatively small warhead allowing a pilot to 'snipe' targets from up to 60 km away

Useful where modern governments are Risk adverse in terms of Friendly and Civilian losses

There's an interesting chicken and egg thing with guided weapons, just as they came into service attitudes toward carpets bombing civilians began to change and iit was no longer OK to kill thousands to drop a bridge or smash a rail yard.

The RAF introduced the TILAD laser designator pod during 1991 PGW and it served them well for 15 or so years, but being designed to target bridges and the like it wasn't suitable for sniping in built up areas so has been replaced by the LITENING III pod which is more suitable. These advances are advancing in lock step with attitudes towards targeting of civilians and the low stakes that these wars are being fought for.

Its interesting that these advances are made with soo few aircraft, the initial LLGBs that dropped the dragons jaw and Paul Doumer bridges in 1972 were designated by only 8 Phantoms fitted with the gear and the RAF only had 2 TILAD equipped Tornados in 1991.
 
Laser Guided Bombs are as described laser guided. They need a laser designator. Whether this designator is built into the airframe such as the F-117 and A6E, carried in a pod as with the F15E, F16, F/A-18, Rafale, M2000 or Tornado, designated by a fellow aircraft or special / friendly forces on the ground. LGB's are very accurate but can be affected by rain, fog or somke.

JDAMS's use GPS similar to that of a SATNAV. Unlike an LGB, the guidance system is in the tail rather than the nose. They simply strike a target based on coordinates. Thus are not affected by weather or man made obstructions.

The latest JDAM's and the RAF's Paveway IV have dual GPS and laser seekers giving the best of both.
 
There's an interesting chicken and egg thing with guided weapons, just as they came into service attitudes toward carpets bombing civilians began to change and iit was no longer OK to kill thousands to drop a bridge or smash a rail yard.

The RAF introduced the TILAD laser designator pod during 1991 PGW and it served them well for 15 or so years, but being designed to target bridges and the like it wasn't suitable for sniping in built up areas so has been replaced by the LITENING III pod which is more suitable. These advances are advancing in lock step with attitudes towards targeting of civilians and the low stakes that these wars are being fought for.

Its interesting that these advances are made with soo few aircraft, the initial LLGBs that dropped the dragons jaw and Paul Doumer bridges in 1972 were designated by only 8 Phantoms fitted with the gear and the RAF only had 2 TILAD equipped Tornados in 1991.

IIRC they emergency modified Buccaneers to carry the pods to target for the other aircraft!

As for Lightning III pods I read a book a few years back about a RN Harrier Squadron that deployed to Afgan and one pilot was able to redirect the bomb to a safe distance from the original targeted point after realising that civilians were at the impact point 'after' the bomb had been dropped.

Progress!
 
JDAMS's use GPS similar to that of a SATNAV. Unlike an LGB, the guidance system is in the tail rather than the nose. They simply strike a target based on coordinates. Thus are not affected by weather or man made obstructions.

And here are the two problems:
- obtaining the good coordinate, either you have an automatic system, either you rely on someone giving the coordinate, so error are possible
- GPS jamming, yes it can be jammed, either crudely (augmentation of the electronic noise on the frequency), either very smoothly (hacking the signal, yes it's possible but a bit hard).

Laser marking can be blinded, or even spotted and the marking team destroy.

Both system are complementary and have their use.

Other thing to remember but today even dumb bomb can be dropped with a lot more precision than in the second world war due to modern calculator (CCIP and CCRP mode)
 
And here are the two problems:
- obtaining the good coordinate, either you have an automatic system, either you rely on someone giving the coordinate, so error are possible
- GPS jamming, yes it can be jammed, either crudely (augmentation of the electronic noise on the frequency), either very smoothly (hacking the signal, yes it's possible but a bit hard).

Laser marking can be blinded, or even spotted and the marking team destroy.

Both system are complementary and have their use.

Other thing to remember but today even dumb bomb can be dropped with a lot more precision than in the second world war due to modern calculator (CCIP and CCRP mode)

As Vulcan 607 proved when it bombed Port Stanley airport
 
How true is the whole "So accurate you can drop one and have it hit an individual window in a building" expression?
In addition to what thefrecklepuny said, there is another guidance system which you may be referring to here: TV guidance. This is the source of that bomb camera footage you see where the screen shows a rapidly approaching vehicle or building until it goes to static. Generally a Weapons Systems Officer literally steers the weapon (like some AGM-65 Maverick variants, the old AGM-62 Walleye bomb) onto the target, which can be as small as a window.
 
IIRC they emergency modified Buccaneers to carry the pods to target for the other aircraft!

As for Lightning III pods I read a book a few years back about a RN Harrier Squadron that deployed to Afgan and one pilot was able to redirect the bomb to a safe distance from the original targeted point after realising that civilians were at the impact point 'after' the bomb had been dropped.

Progress!

Its been a while since I looked into this and I'm holidays so my info may not be totally accurate.

The story with the Buccaneers in the PGW was once it became clear that the AAA was making low level too risky they switched to medium level bombing, 6 Buccaneer with Pave Spike being deployed Jan 26, within 72 hours of the decision. A pair of Buccs would operate with 4 Tornados, but the Pave Spike could only operate in daylight. I don't know the exact timing of the deployment of the 2 TILAD pods but given the air war only lasted 43 days and 2 TILAD Tornados guided 200 of the 1000 LGBs dropped by the RAF I'd guess it was in the same timeframe as the decision to send Pave Spike Buccs. The Buccs had operated with the Pave Spike for a long time, which is how the deployment could proceed so quickly.

 
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