Dieseliberator?

After looking at this post, talking about the benefits of diesel power for maritime patrol aircraft, I wondered: would a diesel-powered Liberator be any better than the avgas-fuelled version?

Did the U.S. (or Britain) even have high-powered aviation diesels?

Would this have impacted the Battle of the Atlantic at all?
 
It's hard to comment on engines which didn't exist. The post-war Napier Nomad was such a purpose-built engine for maritime patrol aircraft to replace the Griffons on Shackletons. Success was probably at the 6 million pound mark, because they gave up at 5. Napier had a licence to build Ju-205 engines, which was about as good as it got for power-to-weight.
 
Just Leo said:
Napier had a licence to build Ju-205 engines, which was about as good as it got for power-to-weight.
That would have done, wouldn't it? Or were they too low-powered?
 
That would have done, wouldn't it? Or were they too low-powered?

They were too low in power, but more important was the fact that Napier never went ahead and built the engine during wartime, and American aircraft were not about to be built with a British version of a German engine. Modern design diesel engines are having a resurgence to some degree, due to fuel price and availability problems, but industry and consumer acceptance is lethargic.
 
Just Leo said:
They were too low in power
:( It sounds so good.:(
Just Leo said:
American aircraft were not about to be built with a British version of a German engine
Thinking of the Merlin Mustang, I don't suppose there's even a remote possibility of Napier developing a higher-power version?;) (Outside my dieselpunk dreams, that is.:p)

Why am I thinking of an 8-engined triple-tail Liberator?:p
 
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The Pond Racer with Zoche diesel is my only dream diesel. However, Packard built a hundred DR-980 diesel engines, 1930ish, one of which powered a Bellanca on an 84 hour unrefuelled flight, a record for 55 years. The engines vibrated too much, and smelled like diesel. Nowadays, engine vibration is much better understood and suppressed by balancers and bushings. Cooking oil could be used as fuel, so the exhaust would smell like french fries instead. There's a solution for ya. Fish and chip stands at all airports. The Packard AHDRT-2250 14 cyl. two-row turbo-diesel radial engine with dynamic balancers would be a tad heavier than the R-1830 Pratt, requiring some doublers on the main spar, but much easier than 8 engines. Triple tail is still an option.

PondRacerZochez.png
 
Just Leo said:
The Packard AHDRT-2250 14 cyl. two-row turbo-diesel radial engine with dynamic balancers would be a tad heavier than the R-1830 Pratt, requiring some doublers on the main spar, but much easier than 8 engines. Triple tail is still an option.
:cool: I like the idea a lot.
Just Leo said:
There's a solution for ya. Fish and chip stands at all airports.
Who sez war can't be green?:p Every restaurant meal, every fast food joint, is a war asset.:cool:
 
Diesel engined aircraft might be practical today, but could not have been during WW II. Diesel engines deliver high torque at relatively low RPM, ideal for heavy machinery and large ground vehicles like tanks and trucks, but not suitable for aircraft, which need engines capable of high RPM. At high RPM settings the available diesels would have been horribly inefficient compared to gasoline engines and would have required more fuel to be carried with attendant reduction in useful payload.

Diesel engines do have one other significant advantage for combat vehicles; diesel is much less volatile than gasoline, so the risk of fire is much less.
 
Diesel engined aircraft might be practical today, but could not have been during WW II. Diesel engines deliver high torque at relatively low RPM, ideal for heavy machinery and large ground vehicles like tanks and trucks, but not suitable for aircraft, which need engines capable of high RPM. At high RPM settings the available diesels would have been horribly inefficient compared to gasoline engines and would have required more fuel to be carried with attendant reduction in useful payload.

Diesel engines do have one other significant advantage for combat vehicles; diesel is much less volatile than gasoline, so the risk of fire is much less.

Nobody has suggested that diesel engines had a place in WWII high-performance combat aircraft. Diesel engines did power WWII aircraft and did have potential for long-range patrol aircraft. Diesel fuel offers higher potential power for weight of fuel than gasoline. A requirement of longer concrete runways to counter lower available take-off power isn't such a hardship for the type, and the lessening of fuel volatility would reduce the requirement for self-sealing tanks, reducing weight and increasing potential fuel volume. No crewman would complain about reduced likelihood of a firey death. Prolonged development of the Packard radial engine could have led to the production of a viable wartime engine of suitable output, had the aroma of diesel oil been more pleasant. It was a lack of consumer acceptance, not viability, that precluded such development. The further development of turbo-compound hybrids, such as Nomad, would have eliminated objections to low power, replaced by bitchin' about high cost and complexity. It was an opportunity missed based on the common sense of smell.
 
Just Leo said:
Nobody has suggested that diesel engines had a place in WWII high-performance combat aircraft.
Indeed. I'm proposing it for the same reason it makes sense for semi-trailers: durability & fuel economy. TBH, I never thought about self-sealing tanks, & in a maritime patrol type, that'd be less an issue anyhow IMO.
Just Leo said:
The LBT-30A Halibut.
I'd set the center fin a bit further back, myself.;) Think L49 Connie.:cool:
Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Not liberator, but liberace? :p
:p I can see it now: "Memphis Belle" starring Boy George & George Michael, with soundtrack by Elton John.:p
Just Leo said:
How do you spell cholesterol? V-I-C-T-O-R-Y!
"I love the smell of cooking grease in the morning.":p (An army's kitchen would actually make an important contribution to winning the war.:eek::p)

(TY. I'm here all week.:p )
 
I'd set the center fin a bit further back, myself.;) Think L49 Connie.:cool:

:p I can see it now: "Memphis Belle" starring Boy George & George Michael, with soundtrack by Elton John.:p

"I love the smell of cooking grease in the morning.":p (An army's kitchen would actually make an important contribution to winning the war.:eek::p)

(TY. I'm here all week.:p )

The central fin placement was defined by careful aerodynamic study, and compliance with the hinge line of the Privateer, verified in wind tunnel testing.

I was thinking more along the lines of a musical, "The Glory that was Grease", with Travolta and Newton-John graduating from Rydell Flight School.

Oh, what a dream,
The chick's 'll cream,
Greased Halibut.

I may not make the week.
 
Just Leo said:
The central fin placement was defined by careful aerodynamic study, and compliance with the hinge line of the Privateer, verified in wind tunnel testing.
Huh. I find it esthetically offensive.:eek: Then again, I think the Connie was about the most beautiful thing ever flown.:cool:
Just Leo said:
I was thinking more along the lines of a musical, "The Glory that was Grease", with Travolta and Newton-John graduating from Rydell Flight School.

Oh, what a dream,
The chick's 'll cream,
Greased Halibut.

I may not make the week.
:p Watch out for those summer bomber raids.:p They're hell on the boardwalk.:p (Tho "grease" is still the word.:D Somebody call Frankie Valli.:p)

Also, I want to know how you get AAF & WAF in the same school...:confused: (Am I being to technical?:p )
 
Huh. I find it esthetically offensive.:eek: Then again, I think the Connie was about the most beautiful thing ever flown.:cool:


Also, I want to know how you get AAF & WAF in the same school...:confused: (Am I being to technical?:p )

The Republic Rainbow was first, Connie second. The Lib was always second last, so I didn't even try. You have to dress it up before it can be considered just dumpy looking.

You have to apply to the Gummint for a Poetic Licence. It is technical. You have to study to pass the blood test.
 
The Republic Rainbow was first, Connie second. [/quote]
We're going to have to disagree, there. The Rainbow is too cylindrical for my liking, & the nacelles are way too long.

That said, the Connie could've been about 3 ft shorter aft the main gear, or about that much longer ahead of the main spar; she wanted a touch more symmetry.
Just Leo said:
The Lib was always second last
Never pretty, but square-shouldered & businesslike. (Then again, I have a weakness for the F4D, with all her bizarre lines & angles.:eek::cool:Kind of like Ellen Barkin::p the package works.)
Just Leo said:
You have to apply to the Gummint for a Poetic Licence. It is technical. You have to study to pass the blood test.
:p I figured it was something like that.
 
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