Die Alte Welt Hat Überlebt- A Central Powers Victory Collaborative Timeline

[Red Arturoist]

Lovely logos! Could you try doing them without the flags though?

At first, I thought this, too, but then I thought: Why couldn't German parties ITTL have flags instead of logos?

 

[Hindustani Person]

At first, I thought this, too, but then I thought: Why couldn't German parties ITTL have flags instead of logos?

Why not actually?

 

[Hindustani Person]

Where is Hitler ITTL? (I know, this is the most cursed question ever)

 

[Hindustani Person]

Hey lads, lasses, and others! I just wanted to tell you all that i’ll be back soon and I think we might just see a new world map so get ready for the hype!

 

[KaiserEmu]

Just another thought... IOTL, the Republic of German-Austria declared its independence as the Hapsburg Empire collapsed, and clearly stated its intention to join Germany. An majority of the Austrian population continued to support union, and the only reason why it didn't eventuate was because it was forbidden at Versailles. If A-H, for whatever reason, collapses, but the Central Powers have won the war, then I don't see any reason why anschluss would not be pursued.

Hey lads, lasses, and others! I just wanted to tell you all that i’ll be back soon and I think we might just see a new world map so get ready for the hype!

Speaking of world maps... here's my idea of what the world could look like in the months before the Second World War.

Notable features include:

• My rather feeble attempts to illustrate the situation in China, Korea and Japan, where three different civil wars continue to rage.
• My similarly feeble attempts to illustrate the scenario in India and South Asia.
• How I could see borders evolving in Central and Eastern Europe through the interwar period (incl German northern Sudetenland, a very large Romania and a very angry Hungary).
• Rodzaevsky's Russia has reclaimed the Siberian Republic with almost no sound from the international community, and is now beginning to clamour for referenda in Crimea, Kuban, and eastern Ukraine.
• Much of Central Asia has slipped away from Russia, and has splintered into various nations with varying degrees of recognition.
• The Imperial Commonwealth of Britain, under Proactive rule, has been slowly integrating the dominions (an exact opposite to OTL Britain's actions) and attempting to reassert their colonial power; some, most notably Australia and New Zealand, are resisting this and calls for outright independence are increasing.
• Not that you can see it on the map, but Greece, Spain, Portugal, the Roman Republic (formerly Italy), Argentina and Chile have fallen under Romanist governments
• In a similar vein, ultra-Orthodox governments have seized power in Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia.
• The Turkish Nationalists have 'won' the Ottoman Civil War, with all Turkish (and Kurdish, and Armenian, but we don't talk about them) regions now under the control of the Turkish Republic; secular, democratic and doing fairly well for themselves, considering.
• The Kingdom of Arabia, however, while managing to defeat the Sultan's forces and the Wahhabis, remains plagued by instability, conflict and strife; and pretty much the entire northern third of the country has some kind of active independence movement.

Any questions? Comments?

My idea for how this would progress up until the outbreak of war:

• As Rodzaevsky becomes ever more assertive on the international stage, his demands for a renegotiation of Vilnius grow ever louder. Eventually, Germany agrees to referenda in eastern Ukraine, Kuban and Crimea, which result in all three regions rejoining Russia. (Ignore those election irregularities. I'm sure a ruthless dictator wouldn't resort to ballot stuffing and intimidation to influence an election...)
• The Japanese Emperor returns from his exile in Siberia to Japan - still in chaos - and with Russian troops and Russian weapons, sets about reconquering his nation.
• Pro-Russian revolts in Litbel erupt and the government is forced to ask for foreign assistance in quelling the violence.
• Seeing the situation closer to home intensify and grow ever closer to war, Germany withdraws all non-diplomatic support for the Chinese Empire, and orders a retreat of their own forces back to only the Shandong Peninsula.
• The Kuomintang seizes the opportunity and promptly launches a series of sucessful offensives into the territory of a country in disarray.
• France, isolated on the diplomatic stage and seeing Germany prepare for war, establishes a non-aggression pact with Russia. Secretly, they also carve out zones of influence in Germany in the event of a war, which is increasingly being seen as inevitable.
• With most revolts crushed, the Japanese Emperor returns to Tokyo. This is typically seen as the end of the Interregnum period of Japanese history. No sooner than he has established some semblance of control over his own people, he begins an invasion of China on the Liaoning Peninsula (with Russian backing).
• Meanwhile in Russia, a series of ever more violent pogroms results in Russia's Jews being rounded up and deported to the Far East - ostensibly for their own safety.
• A series of escalating diplomatic incidents, confrontations and condemnations results in a heightening of global tensions; almost universally, the question is now when, not if, a war will break out.
• The Chinese Empire, squeezed on both sides, sees Bejing fall to the Japanese. The government flees south, and begins negotiating with the Republic.
• Amidst the fraught situation, no one even notices when British troops march into the Bombay Republic and Confederation of Gujarat.
• Turkey officially concludes an alliance with Germany. Russia, seeing her link to the outside world closing off, decides now is the time to act.
• Rodzaevsky issues an ultimatum to Germany and her allies:
  • Transfer Belarus to the Russian State
  • Provide for a referendum in what remains of Ukraine on joining Russia
  • Withdraw all German forces from the Baltic states
  • Provide for the establishment of an international administration of the Bosporus and Marmara Sea region
• Germany, of course, refuses Russia's (deliberately) outrageous demands. Within half an hour of their rejection, Russian troops steamroll into Ukraine and Belarus. Kiev falls within the day. The Second World War has begun.

 

[Hindustani Person]

The Republic of the Northern Caucasus
View attachment 483245
Map of the Republic of Montana (Green) in the Caucasus region (White) Abkhazia is shown in olive green

View attachment 483246
Flag of the Republic of Montana

Capital: Vedeno
Offivial Languages: Chechen, Kabardian, Ossetic, Ingush, Balkar, Abkhaz
Unofficial Languages: German, Dagestani, English, Turkish
Official Currency: Montani Dollar (.6 USD)
Government: Federal Constitutional Republic

The Republic of the Northern Caucasus, unofficially the Republic of Montana, is a Federal Republic in the Northern Caucasus region. It is comprised of many ethnic groups, including Chechens, Ossetians, Kabardians, Ingushetians, Balkars, and Abkhazians. It has had a tumultuous history, going from a secession movement, to a German puppet, to being invaded by Belaist Russia and the Great Abkhaz Betrayal, to a Communist Dictatorship, to the modern Republic, and now to the Abkhaz conflict.

HISTORY:
The Northern Caucasus region spent much of its history with infighting between its many ethnicities,
before being subsumed by the Russian Empire in the nineteenth century. In the following decades, every so often one of them nations would revolt, only to be brutally crushed. In the early twentieth century though, several politicians from across the many ethnic groups and nations formed the Union of the Peoples of the Northern Caucasus, which advocated a peaceful split from Russia. When Russia collapsed into civil war in early 1917, it was the perfect opportunity.

The Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus was declared on the 5th of August, 1917. Its constitution established a Federal Republic system, but it was mostly run by the military in its early years. Germany quickly recognized the young nation, and sent troops to aid it, as well as many of the other separatist movements in the oil-rich Caucasus at the time. The Mountainous Republic's forces won a key victory against the forces of Anton Denikin of the White Movement, and the Bolsheviks were forced to recognize the independence of the Caucasian states in the treaty of Vilnius*.

The young Republic had many problems plaguing it. For one, the Germans had refused to withdraw their troops from the country, and there were several outbursts of violence in response. For another, although a (reasonably) fair election for the legislature had been held, the president, Tapa Tchermoeff, refused to step down. Luckily, a bloody civil war was avoided, when the Germans withdrew their forces in 1921, and President Tchermoeff agreed to respect the wishes of the parliement.

As the rest of the Caucasus countries fell increasingly under either German or Turkish influence, so too did the Mountainous Republic. The Republic joined Mitteleuropa in 1925, signed a trade agreement with Germany, giving German corporations the rights to dig for oil, and many of the people even started speaking German as a lingua franca. Tchermoeff drew the line at joining with any German military alliances or pacts, seeing how well that had worked out in the Great war. Unfortunately, that also meant that the Mountainous republic was less defended than other nations.

As Russia began to turn towards Belaism, Germany grew concerned more and more with the Caucasus region. After the Annexation of the Don Free State, President Tchermoeff finally agreed to join the Allies, an act that angered much of the parliement, especially the Abkhazian delegates, who did not like the German warships in their harbors, and grew paranoid of a German invasion. This would also be Tchermoeff's last major decision, as he died a few weeks later.
When war was finally declared in 1940, the Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus had no commander in chief, and several of its constituents were threatening to secede. Abkhazia took advantage of the situation, and declared its independence, and immedialtely allied with Belaist Russia.
This was known as "The Great Abkaz Betrayal"

Abkhazia invaded the Kuban Republic, the State of Georgia, and the Mountainous Republic, all with the support of Belaist Russia
View attachment 483247
Map of the Caucasus region after "The Great Abkhaz Betrayal" 1941

As Russia collapsed in the late 40s, a Communist resurgence began, and as the Neo-Bolsheviks gained ground in the far east, the partisans in the Caucasus managed to break the Russo-Abkhaz hegemony over the former Mountainous Republic. Inspired by the Neo-Bolshevik movement, the Federation of the Peoples of the Mountains was established. Although it at first attempted to be a Libertarian Socialist state, it quickly became an authoritarian one.
View attachment 483261
The flag of the Montana Socialist Republic (1948-1979)
View attachment 483249
Map of the Montana Socialist Republic, showing the "Special administration zones" of Abkhazia and South Ossetia

The Montana Socialist Republic punished Abkhazia for its betrayal, forcibly relocating all Abkhazians into the Special Administration Zone of Abkhazia. Abkhaz speakers were treated as second class citizens, and were used as cheap labor by the regime. The Regime was not exactly friendly to its citizens either, insisting on trying to break down ethnic differences to "strengthen the Montani identity" It soon became a pariah state, and its dictator became increasingly paranoid about American or German invasion. it cut off all oil shipments to America and Germany.

In 1979, however, the longstanding dictator died. A short, but violent, civil war began, ending with the establishment of the American-backed Republic of Montana. In 1984, Dagestan held a referendum on independence, which passed. However, Abkhazia has held four such referendums, and all have been ruled invalid by the Montani courts.

in 2010, the Abkhazians rebelled against the Republic of Montana. The war has been bloody, and long lasting, due to the United States backing of the Montani government, and the German backing of Abkhazia. Currently, the Montana Republic is winning, and the rebels have been forced back to the strip of land surrounding Sukhumi.

View attachment 483814
Flag of the Abkhazian Liberation Army

Despite all of this, the Republic of Montana has been rebuilt, largely with american aid, and is considered to be the most Democratic state in the Caucasus.

*treaty of Vilnius=Treaty of Brest-Litovsk

What is the 'Neo-Armenian Empire' and who rules over it?

 

[Red Arturoist]

What is the 'Neo-Armenian Empire' and who rules over it?

I would say: A German-Ottoman supported state (more German probably). I don't know which dynasty could provide the Emperor, but what about President Bekur Matsakian?

 

[Red Arturoist]

Speaking of world maps... here's my idea of what the world could look like in the months before the Second World War.

I like this map, to be honest. I must still read through your proposals...

EDIT: But why is West Africa not yet divided under pro-Communist states?
And why is Turkey that small (and does not contain Iraq)? And no independent Assyria?

The Turkish Nationalists have 'won' the Ottoman Civil War, with all Turkish (and Kurdish, and Armenian, but we don't talk about them) regions now under the control of the Turkish Republic; secular, democratic and doing fairly well for themselves, considering.

Why would that be the case? I always thought that Rodzaevsky's Russia incited civil war in the Ottoman Empire, but with Rodzaevsky's defeat, the civil war would end.

 

[mikroraptor]

What is the 'Neo-Armenian Empire' and who rules over it?

I was thinking that it originally started as a German backed Armenian homeland, but became a nationalist dictatorship, backed by Rodzhaevsky, that wants Armenia to extend from the Med to the Caspian seas. They seized some land from the Ottomans during their civil war (I am gonna do an update on that soon) and initially backed Rodzhaevsky, but switched sides about halfway through the war

 

[Red Arturoist]

I was thinking that it originally started as a German backed Armenian homeland, but became a nationalist dictatorship, backed by Rodzhaevsky, that wants Armenia to extend from the Med to the Caspian seas. They seized some land from the Ottomans during their civil war (I am gonna do an update on that soon) and initially backed Rodzhaevsky, but switched sides about halfway through the war

Good idea for Armenia! Also, backing Rodzaevsky (at least at first) makes sense especially as the Armenian Genocide had already happened at the time of the POD.

 

[mikroraptor]

China in 1939

The Beijing Government has lost all foreign aid, and the warlords that were aligned with them have split off. The Shandong Protectorate was conceded to them, though.
all is not well in the Nanking Government, as there is a growing split between more nationalist and militarist aspects of the KMT, and those who think that they are too authoritarian, and are "defiling the legacy of Sun-Yat-Sen".

After years of anarchy and chaos, the Empire has been restored to Japan, and is now indebted to Russia. Immediately, the Imperial forces invade Korea.
"Khan" Sternberg dies, and the military dictatorship in Mongolia comes to an end. The new Government is anti-Russian, and signs an armistice with the Nanking government, so they can boost their defenses to the north. The CCP is quietly getting more and more powerful. And the Russians are starting to have an interest in the far east again...

 

[mikroraptor]

Just another thought... IOTL, the Republic of German-Austria declared its independence as the Hapsburg Empire collapsed, and clearly stated its intention to join Germany. An majority of the Austrian population continued to support union, and the only reason why it didn't eventuate was because it was forbidden at Versailles. If A-H, for whatever reason, collapses, but the Central Powers have won the war, then I don't see any reason why anschluss would not be pursued.



Speaking of world maps... here's my idea of what the world could look like in the months before the Second World War.

View attachment 490380

Notable features include:

• My rather feeble attempts to illustrate the situation in China, Korea and Japan, where three different civil wars continue to rage.
• My similarly feeble attempts to illustrate the scenario in India and South Asia.
• How I could see borders evolving in Central and Eastern Europe through the interwar period (incl German northern Sudetenland, a very large Romania and a very angry Hungary).
• Rodzaevsky's Russia has reclaimed the Siberian Republic with almost no sound from the international community, and is now beginning to clamour for referenda in Crimea, Kuban, and eastern Ukraine.
• Much of Central Asia has slipped away from Russia, and has splintered into various nations with varying degrees of recognition.
• The Imperial Commonwealth of Britain, under Proactive rule, has been slowly integrating the dominions (an exact opposite to OTL Britain's actions) and attempting to reassert their colonial power; some, most notably Australia and New Zealand, are resisting this and calls for outright independence are increasing.
• Not that you can see it on the map, but Greece, Spain, Portugal, the Roman Republic (formerly Italy), Argentina and Chile have fallen under Romanist governments
• In a similar vein, ultra-Orthodox governments have seized power in Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia.
• The Turkish Nationalists have 'won' the Ottoman Civil War, with all Turkish (and Kurdish, and Armenian, but we don't talk about them) regions now under the control of the Turkish Republic; secular, democratic and doing fairly well for themselves, considering.
• The Kingdom of Arabia, however, while managing to defeat the Sultan's forces and the Wahhabis, remains plagued by instability, conflict and strife; and pretty much the entire northern third of the country has some kind of active independence movement.

Any questions? Comments?

My idea for how this would progress up until the outbreak of war:

• As Rodzaevsky becomes ever more assertive on the international stage, his demands for a renegotiation of Vilnius grow ever louder. Eventually, Germany agrees to referenda in eastern Ukraine, Kuban and Crimea, which result in all three regions rejoining Russia. (Ignore those election irregularities. I'm sure a ruthless dictator wouldn't resort to ballot stuffing and intimidation to influence an election...)
• The Japanese Emperor returns from his exile in Siberia to Japan - still in chaos - and with Russian troops and Russian weapons, sets about reconquering his nation.
• Pro-Russian revolts in Litbel erupt and the government is forced to ask for foreign assistance in quelling the violence.
• Seeing the situation closer to home intensify and grow ever closer to war, Germany withdraws all non-diplomatic support for the Chinese Empire, and orders a retreat of their own forces back to only the Shandong Peninsula.
• The Kuomintang seizes the opportunity and promptly launches a series of sucessful offensives into the territory of a country in disarray.
• France, isolated on the diplomatic stage and seeing Germany prepare for war, establishes a non-aggression pact with Russia. Secretly, they also carve out zones of influence in Germany in the event of a war, which is increasingly being seen as inevitable.
• With most revolts crushed, the Japanese Emperor returns to Tokyo. This is typically seen as the end of the Interregnum period of Japanese history. No sooner than he has established some semblance of control over his own people, he begins an invasion of China on the Liaoning Peninsula (with Russian backing).
• Meanwhile in Russia, a series of ever more violent pogroms results in Russia's Jews being rounded up and deported to the Far East - ostensibly for their own safety.
• A series of escalating diplomatic incidents, confrontations and condemnations results in a heightening of global tensions; almost universally, the question is now when, not if, a war will break out.
• The Chinese Empire, squeezed on both sides, sees Bejing fall to the Japanese. The government flees south, and begins negotiating with the Republic.
• Amidst the fraught situation, no one even notices when British troops march into the Bombay Republic and Confederation of Gujarat.
• Turkey officially concludes an alliance with Germany. Russia, seeing her link to the outside world closing off, decides now is the time to act.
• Rodzaevsky issues an ultimatum to Germany and her allies:
  • Transfer Belarus to the Russian State
  • Provide for a referendum in what remains of Ukraine on joining Russia
  • Withdraw all German forces from the Baltic states
  • Provide for the establishment of an international administration of the Bosporus and Marmara Sea region
• Germany, of course, refuses Russia's (deliberately) outrageous demands. Within half an hour of their rejection, Russian troops steamroll into Ukraine and Belarus. Kiev falls within the day. The Second World War has begun.

I like your portrayal of the civil wars in east asia. I also think that the annexation of Nordsudetenland makes sense. I am not thrilled with those middle eastern borders, but I do like the idea of the nationalist victory, and a German-Turkish split.
I think that I agree with your ideas about the start of ww2, so long as those events occur suddenly, after years of militarization.

 

[mikroraptor]

Where is Hitler ITTL? (I know, this is the most cursed question ever)

Since nobody else has responded, these are my thoughts

Adolf Hitler was born in Austria, but moved to Germany in his teens, and fought in the German army during WWI. After the war, he became obsessed with the idea that every German citizen should have access to automobiles, and he was convinced that the car was the key to the future. In 1924, he founded Volkswagen, literally "the people's car" company. He used the assembly line system, pioneered by Henry Ford, and soon Volkswagen was one of the most successful companies in Germany. When the depression hit, he was forced to take contracts with the military to build tanks, which he had previously refused to do on principle. He would never live to see his dream of a car in every home, having long struggled with depression, he committed suicide on May 7th, 1945.

This is just an idea, feel free to use it or not

 

[Hindustani Person]

Since nobody else has responded, these are my thoughts

Adolf Hitler was born in Austria, but moved to Germany in his teens, and fought in the German army during WWI. After the war, he became obsessed with the idea that every German citizen should have access to automobiles, and he was convinced that the car was the key to the future. In 1924, he founded Volkswagen, literally "the people's car" company. He used the assembly line system, pioneered by Henry Ford, and soon Volkswagen was one of the most successful companies in Germany. When the depression hit, he was forced to take contracts with the military to build tanks, which he had previously refused to do on principle. He would never live to see his dream of a car in every home, having long struggled with depression, he committed suicide on May 7th, 1945.

This is just an idea, feel free to use it or not

My idea is he is a radical German general who strongly campaigned for a war on Russia and France.

 

[mikroraptor]

My idea is he is a radical German general who strongly campaigned for a war on Russia and France.

What if he is a general, but he becomes disillusioned with the government, and turns to the far left. When WW2 breaks out, and France and Russia are invading, he brokers a peace deal with France, and becomes the first and only Premier of the People's Republic of Germany?

 

[Hindustani Person]

A bit of an idea for LitBel- how about the eldest son of Mindaugas II of Lithuania, who married morganatically and was thus illegible for the throne, is instead given the title 'King of Ruthenia', and his descendants keep the symbolic title as leaders of Ruthenia, with recognition, but no autonomy and power?

 

[Red Arturoist]

@mikroraptor , I also like the depictions of East Asia the most of @KaiserEmu 's ideas.

I am not thrilled with those middle eastern borders, but I do like the idea of the nationalist victory, and a German-Turkish split.

Why that? I am not convinced of either of those ideas and I built on an Ottoman Empire existing.

What if he is a general, but he becomes disillusioned with the government, and turns to the far left. When WW2 breaks out, and France and Russia are invading, he brokers a peace deal with France, and becomes the first and only Premier of the People's Republic of Germany?

Don't like that idea, to be honest. If no better idea comes to me, I do like the Volkswagen idea!

A bit of an idea for LitBel- how about the eldest son of Mindaugas II of Lithuania, who married morganatically and was thus illegible for the throne, is instead given the title 'King of Ruthenia', and his descendants keep the symbolic title as leaders of Ruthenia, with recognition, but no autonomy and power?

That is a good idea indeed!

China in 1939

Well-made map.

Regarding the Empire of Japan: I think it would be restored by Rodzaevsky. Maybe 1938-9?

 

[mikroraptor]

@mikroraptor , I also like the depictions of East Asia the most of @KaiserEmu 's ideas.



Why that? I am not convinced of either of those ideas and I built on an Ottoman Empire existing.



Don't like that idea, to be honest. If no better idea comes to me, I do like the Volkswagen idea!



That is a good idea indeed!



Well-made map.

Regarding the Empire of Japan: I think it would be restored by Rodzaevsky. Maybe 1938-9?

If you don't mind, @KaiserEmu, I might try to make a larger map showing the anarchy in Japan, based off your map.

I don't plan on having the nationalists maintaining power for very long, but I do kind of need an Ottoman civil war of some kind, for some work I am doing on the middle east...

I don't know much about the dynastic politics of Eastern Europe, but to answer an earlier point, I was thinking that the main reason that Austria didn't unite with Germany was that neither the Hapsburgs nor the Hohenzollerns wanted to give up their sovereignty.

I hinted the Japan was restored by Russia, and that they will be allied with them

 

[Red Arturoist]

I don't plan on having the nationalists maintaining power for very long, but I do kind of need an Ottoman civil war of some kind, for some work I am doing on the middle east...

You get an Ottoman Civil War, but it would start in the 1930s some time and the separatists would be supported by Rodzaevsky.

I don't know much about the dynastic politics of Eastern Europe, but to answer an earlier point, I was thinking that the main reason that Austria didn't unite with Germany was that neither the Hapsburgs nor the Hohenzollerns wanted to give up their sovereignty.

I thought of a different idea: Austria had indeed united with Germany, but separated (à la Scotland, but successful) after a referendum during a recent chancellorship. Probably the Strittmatter one.

 

[mikroraptor]

You get an Ottoman Civil War, but it would start in the 1930s some time and the separatists would be supported by Rodzaevsky.



I thought of a different idea: Austria had indeed united with Germany, but separated (à la Scotland, but successful) after a referendum during a recent chancellorship. Probably the Strittmatter one.

That works for me. That reminds me, I was planning on doing another current news article about the situation in Scotland