Die Alte Welt Hat Überlebt- A Central Powers Victory Collaborative Timeline
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Red Arturoist's Timeline
An attempt at a (very rough) world history. Mostly focused on Europe probably, but tackling other parts of the world, too:
And of course, it is still a WIP. What do you think of it?
And of course, it is still a WIP. What do you think of it?
- 1917: Unrestricted submarine warfare is given up on, America never enters the war.
- October 1917: Russian revolutionaries conclude the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk hastily, setting Poland, Lithuania, the United Baltic Duchy, Belarus and Ukraine free.
- November 1917: With a bad harvest and little will left to fight, French soldiers mutiny en masse. France is beginning to turn red.
- Germany and the Central Powers have won World War I!
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- 1918-19: Regimes in Poland, Lithuania, and Ukraine stabilise. Belarus, however, falls to anarchist Makhnoist-types (is that plausible, @Augenis ?) and in order to restore order, (Poland and) Lithuania invade. Litbel is formed.
- 1918-1922: Emperor Karl I. manages to reform Austria-Hungary into a constitutional democratic monarchy, however, to the chagrin of many, he makes the nation a unitary one. It is unitary to an extent that the second-level subdivisions consist of 87 Bezirke. Cultural and linguistic minorities have the right to speak their language and educate their children in it. Now, the nation is officially called Kingdom of the Danube (Donaumonarchie).
- 1920-1927: Paul von Hindenburg proves an excellent administrator of Germany, though somewhat authoritarian. He also manages to seize or negotiate away many colonies from France, Britain and other nations falling to diverse revolutions, and thus, Mittelafrika is achieved by the late 1920s. Even the Congo goes German as Belgium falls to a civil war.
- In the same vein, the Dutch East Indies turn German.
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- 1932: After a 8-year period of rapid change in General Secretaries of the United French Communes, Hubert Lagardelle becomes the new hope of France.
- 1933: Western Australia successfully secedes.
- 1932-34: Hubert Lagardelle restructures and quickly industrialises France.
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I agree with most of the history that you posted above, @Red Arturoist.
But... I think that it was previously established somewhere that Austria-Hungary collapsed into civil war shortly after the war ends. Also, I think that the USA should be involved in ww2, possibly focusing more on the British isles and the Pacific. Also, are we going to have that Ottoman civil war that was talked about before? For postwar, what about a cold war between a Sino-American sphere, and a German-Ottoman sphere?
But... I think that it was previously established somewhere that Austria-Hungary collapsed into civil war shortly after the war ends. Also, I think that the USA should be involved in ww2, possibly focusing more on the British isles and the Pacific. Also, are we going to have that Ottoman civil war that was talked about before? For postwar, what about a cold war between a Sino-American sphere, and a German-Ottoman sphere?
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I think those options are satisfactory.
On the topic of a Red Japan, what type of 'red' are we talking about? Anarchist, totalitarian, communist, or syndicalist?
And @KaiserEmu , in case you were wondering, the Anarchist movement was in fact very strong in Korea, so strong that there was at one point an Anarchist Commune there in the 30s until the Japanese crushed it. With less luck for the Japanese, perhaps the Commune could expand.
Where was that established? I do admit that I had the idea of Austria-Hungary lasting for a bit quite recently.
Is Austria-Hungary collapsing important for any other canon that was already firmly established?
I picture a civil war indeed, and Austria-Hungary could lose some territory - it most likely does in the South - but I think my path can still be plausible.
KaiserEmu's idea for the timeline
This is what I've cobbled together as a timeline from 1917 to 1938. While I've tried to account for as much as I can, I still believe it's incomplete (what happens in Asia in the 30s, for example? What's happening in Britain and America?).
World War I
Four years after it began, World War I is over. The Central Powers have won, but the world is far from at peace.
1920s
A decade of civil wars, new ideologies and rapid change has resulted in an entirely different world to the one of twenty years ago. But as the 1920s draw to a close, the chaos is only beginning…
1930s
With totalitarian regimes on the rise across the globe, war seems inevitable. But no one yet knows when they will be plunged into the abyss of another global conflict…
Now my other questions. We really need to get a clearer picture of WWII and the lead up to it, especially for nations other than Russia.
My other major issue is with this:
Ukraine (as well as the Baltics) are under significant German influence. If Germany is world hegemon (which they seem to be at this point in time), then they are not letting a radical, expansionist Russia just take what amounts to their food bowl with only "token resistance". I think the reasons for Russia's expansion may need to be thought out a bit more.
As regards claims, while I'd like to restate my position that we put them on hold until a complete timeline is formed, I'd like to mention that I asked to work on Africa. Furthermore, @Red Arturoist , I think your claiming of almost the entirety of Europe is a bit unfair. Given the centrality of Europe to this timeline, I think development of that continent especially needs to be a collaborative endeavour. I'm more than okay with you taking a leading role in the development there, but I think an outright claim on almost the entire continent shuts others out of most of the influential parts of this timeline.
Finally, can we please fix those former Austria-Hungary borders? They're painful to look at.
World War I
- February 1917: Germany does not reintroduce unrestricted submarine warfare; America never enters the war. The tsar is deposed in Russia as per OTL.
- October 1917: The Bolsheviks come to power in Russia; they seek and obtain an armistice with Germany.
- November 1917: With a bad harvest and little will left to fight, French soldiers mutiny en masse.
- December 1917: The Christmas Revolution in France sees much of Paris fall to a revived Commune. As uprisings spread and under pressure from the rebels and mutineers, the French government seeks an armistice with Germany.
- February 1918: King George V dies at the hands of a union activist. Widespread strikes and riots force significant portions of the army to be recalled to maintain order. An anti-union movement begins among the returning soldiers, who eventually suppress the “Red Spring” by May.
- April 1918: Russian revolutionaries conclude the Treaty of Vilnius, with Poland, Lithuania, the United Baltic Duchy, Belarus, Ukraine, Crimea and Kuban becoming independent under varying levels of German influence. Montana, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Dagestan become independent under Ottoman influence.
- May 1918: Without much hope after France’s surrender and troubled by internal instability, Britain also seeks peace; Belgium, now effectively abandoned, follows suit.
- June 1918: The French Fourth Republic is proclaimed, adopting a constitution on socialist principles.
- August 1918: The Treaty of Strasbourg ends the war on the Western Front with German annexation of the French departments of Meurthe-et-Moselle, Belfort and parts of Vosges; the entire nation of Luxembourg, and the Belgian provinces of Liège and Luxembourg. Significant colonial concessions are also obtained, resulting in the creation of German Central Africa.
Four years after it began, World War I is over. The Central Powers have won, but the world is far from at peace.
1920s
- German puppet governments in Eastern Europe stabilise, mostly under German nobility and semi-authoritarian governments.
- France falls into all-out civil war; while the socialists have secured much of the north and left-wing strongholds like Toulouse, much of the countryside remains under government control.
- Under the leadership of Chancellor von Hindenburg, Germany cements its place in the post-war order. After seizing a vast colonial empire from the allies, he turns his attention to developing Germany’s spheres of influence in Eastern Europe, Africa and East Asia.
- February 1919: Belarus’ regime falls to Bolshevik revolutionaries, backed by Moscow. In order to maintain influence there, Lithuania and Poland (backed by Germany) invade; citing historical ties, the Confederation of Lithuania and Belarus is created.
- May 1919: The (hitherto) Russian Far East asserts their independence as the Siberian Confederation; despite the ongoing civil war, it lays down roots reasonably quickly.
- September 1919: Emperor Karl I attempts to reform Austria-Hungary into a more democratic and equal system; he proposes two new sub-kingdoms be created in Bohemia and Croatia. This backfires spectacularly, and Hungary declares independence, followed swiftly by Croatia. Austria-Hungary falls into civil war before the reforms are even enacted.
- March 1920: A French-backed revolt sees the proclamation of the Commune of Wallonia; l’Armée Rouge marches across the border.
- April 1920: Pro-German generals, urged on by Chancellor Hindenburg, attempt a coup against China’s republican government, installing the young Puyi as a puppet emperor. The Empire (of China) strikes back.
- June 1920: The Cardiff Conference results in the “ten-point manifesto” of the British Proactive Movement
- July 1920: The final government troops leave Marseilles for Algiers; the metropole is now under the control of the Republican Assembly.
- August 1920: After their defeat in the war, Italy erupts into civil conflict, with a loosely-defined ideology centred around admiration of the Roman Empire gaining traction in the south.
- September 1920: The last British troops leave the port of Bombay. India is now (almost) free of colonial control, and split into many new nations, although Germany exercises significant influence in the region. (I will admit, this seems quite radical for such a late POD, but given it seems well established, I’ll leave it in. I’d still like some clarification though.)
- December 1920: Romania takes advantage of the chaos in what was Austria-Hungary, seizing Transylvania and incorporating it into the Romanian state.
- January 1921: The Empire of Egypt proclaims independence, now free of British rule.
- March 1921: Planted rebels in Algiers rise up at the same time that French troops begin their assault on the city. The “Free French” government begins its long retreat to Dakar.
- November 1922: The British general election sees the Proactivists gain the balance of power and enter government.
- August 1923: The failed introduction of a package of economic reforms prompts the growth of labour revolts, anarchist communes and warlord states across Japan. The military, hampered by limits forced on it at Strasbourg, are unable to maintain control.
- April 1924: After a series of attempts on his life, the Japanese Emperor flees to Sakhalin, where an imperial government-in-exile is established. The remainder of Japan is under no central authority, with pockets of almost every ideology imaginable established across the country.
- August 1924: The four-year Italian Civil War draws to a close, with most of Italy now under the control of the Roman Republic. The Romanist Manifesto is issued; it mixes nostalgia for Roman culture with hopes for rapid industrialisation, all under a highly powerful executive.
- September 1924: A vast and sprawling empire unto itself of protectorates, colonies and military districts, a central authority for Germany-in-Africa is established, yet it remains comparatively weak. As long as the rubber, copper and gold continues to flow out of the coastal ports, Germany is more or less content to leave Africa alone.
- January 1925: After a period of rapid change in the leadership of the new France, Hubert Lagardelle becomes Premier, quickly asserting control and stabilising the nation; ‘Madame Guillotine’ is put to use again.
- September 1925: The British Proactivists intentionally bring down their coalition with the Conservatives to force a general election; they win a knife-edge majority after a dirty campaign on all sides.
- 1925: Romanist parties begin to gain traction across southern Europe, especially in Spain and Greece.
- January 1926: Leon Trotsky is assassinated by a young reactionary; shouting anti-communist and anti-Semitic cries, he shoots Lenin’s deputy and disappears into the crowd.
- May 1926: The British Labour Party is outlawed.
- November 1927: Lenin dies a natural death; a power struggle erupts in the Bolshevik Party, and anti-communist elements seize their chance. Within two months, the Second Russian Civil War begins and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic is dissolved.
A decade of civil wars, new ideologies and rapid change has resulted in an entirely different world to the one of twenty years ago. But as the 1920s draw to a close, the chaos is only beginning…
1930s
- March 1930: The Second Russian Civil War draws to a close, with democratic republicans returning to power. Elections are scheduled for July.
- May 1930: May Day riots in major UK cities turn into what would become known as the Day of Bayonets, where the army and Proactivist paramilitaries ruthlessly crushed dissent. In the aftermath of the riots and massacres, Prime Minister Leese obtains authority from Parliament to govern by order-in-council, effectively making him a dictator. Regular renewals of this authority lend some legitimacy to the regime, although after all other parties are banned the passage of each measure becomes a mere formality.
- June 1930: A hitherto mostly unknown figure named Konstantin Rodzaevsky attempts a coup in Moscow, espousing radical Orthodox nationalist ideas, anti-Semitism and authoritarianism. His trial sees his public profile raised a hundredfold, and a sympathetic judge (along with instructions from the government not to provoke too much public ire) see him earn only five years in jail.
- July 1930: Free and fair elections are held in Russia for only the second time in its history. Democratic republicans win a slim majority, although the opposition is sharply divided between radical leftists, radical rightists, monarchists and an assortment of other groups.
- September 1930: Hungary declares war on Romania, swiftly invading and seizing most of Transylvania.
- November 1931: A Romanist party wins the balance of power in Argentina, beginning their eventual takeover of the government there.
- December 1931: In an alternate universe, the Statute of Westminster would be passed, granting the British Dominions almost total legislative independence. With the Proactivists in control, this never occurs.
- May 1932: The Macedonian Republic, a Romanist government based in Salonica, sweeps across much of northern Greece with Italian backing. Six months later, a coup in Athens brings a military junta to power in the rump Greece; it has close ties to Rodzaevsky’s movement.
- June 1933: Western Australia is officially constituted as a separate Dominion within the British Empire; more pro-Proactive than their eastern counterparts, the balance in Canberra begins to shift towards making moves for independence from London's increasingly overbearing dictats.
- August 1935: Rodzaevsky is released from prison and quickly assumes his seat in the Duma, leading the National Populist Party as the third largest party in the Duma. His fevered speeches against “the system” gain him an even wider following.
- May 1938: Black Thursday sees the Berlin Stock Exchange plummet. With it, much of the world economy crashes.
- In the months following Black Thursday, Orthodox nationalists come to power in Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia. Most notably though…
- June 1938: Rodzaevsky secures a majority in the Duma, and assumes the office of Prime Minister for a total of three days. Following intimidation and outright attacks on opposition members, a two-thirds majority is cobbled together to amend the constitution. The position of Consul is created, endowed with “all power to govern the peoples of Russia”, and allowed to unilaterally amend the constitution. The Russian State is officially declared only ten days later.
With totalitarian regimes on the rise across the globe, war seems inevitable. But no one yet knows when they will be plunged into the abyss of another global conflict…
Now my other questions. We really need to get a clearer picture of WWII and the lead up to it, especially for nations other than Russia.
My other major issue is with this:
Ukraine (as well as the Baltics) are under significant German influence. If Germany is world hegemon (which they seem to be at this point in time), then they are not letting a radical, expansionist Russia just take what amounts to their food bowl with only "token resistance". I think the reasons for Russia's expansion may need to be thought out a bit more.
As regards claims, while I'd like to restate my position that we put them on hold until a complete timeline is formed, I'd like to mention that I asked to work on Africa. Furthermore, @Red Arturoist , I think your claiming of almost the entirety of Europe is a bit unfair. Given the centrality of Europe to this timeline, I think development of that continent especially needs to be a collaborative endeavour. I'm more than okay with you taking a leading role in the development there, but I think an outright claim on almost the entire continent shuts others out of most of the influential parts of this timeline.
Finally, can we please fix those former Austria-Hungary borders? They're painful to look at.
I do have ideas for Southern Africa (up to Uganda), but I would like help with West and North, possibly also with the Horn of Africa.
What borders do you mean? The Austrian-Czech border would have been the border of OTL Deutschösterreich.
EDIT: Ah, you meant to incorporate some more established events. That I will of course incorporate in my timeline.
@Hindustani Person , what do you like so much about this new attempt at a timeline?
@KaiserEmu , what is wrong with preserving Austria-Hungary? Which borders are so horrible, or why do you think a lasting Austria-Hungary is implausible?
I am attempting to do this. Of course you can propose your own ideas, but I don't quite understand why your timeline should be better than my attempt above.
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That’a not Southern Africa, that’s Southern, Eastern and Central Africa. And I did ask to work on Africa.
You mean the claimed borders of the country that never actually even cane into existence and whose primary aim was unification with Germany? There’s a clear problem with those borders: they are not defensible in any way whatsoever. It would be impossible for a county to hold that territory and only that territory. As a territorial claim, those borders served an entirely different purpose to any long-term international border. Either the northern half of the Sudetenland has to go, or Austria also takes on Bohemia and Moravia. They are the only feasible long-term border options for the sustainability of the country.
That was my primary aim, as yours was mostly the already established Russian timeline plus some extras. I’ve tried to add in what’s already been proposed in most cases. My main issue is that there are still some holes in the lore for the interwar period and the lead up to the war is poorly outlined. I’m not proposing any radical changes at all really.
I don’t know if he even likes it or not. He’s said before that theeadmarking is only to bring importance to different ideas, so if that’s what you’re worried about, that’s not a problem. If wait until he actually comments before jumping to conclusions.
Austria’s borders are a nightmare; Hungary’s are completely illogical, with one half being based on a singular historical event, caused by very specific geopolitical factors, neither of which occur in this timeline, while the other part has a meaningless intrusion into Vojvodina tat i see absolutely no reason for whatsoever.
I don’t think a lasting Austria-Hungary is implausible, it’s just that it’s been very well established that A-H collapsed in the 20s for a long time - you’ve even shown it on your own maps.
Indeed I can; it’s a collaborative timeline. I would suggest reasons why my timeline is an improvement would include the fact it refers to countries other than Russia in more than passing comments, it attempts to explain more background to events and more detail of what is involved in events like the treaty of Strasbourg. I’m not rubbishing your timeline at all; I’m merely trying to build on it to make it more complete and inclusive while also tackling some issues that seem to lack explanations.
Also, please, please stop double posting. It’s annoying, unnecessary and clogs up the thread.
My primary aim was a full timeline indeed, not just expanding the Russian timeline.
Where do you get that from? Would an independent Sudetenland work, too? Or a German Sudetenland?
Oh... what lacks explanations? I would love to make a full timeline with explanations. Thanks for assuring me of collaboration and building on my timeline. Thus I started incorporating parts into my timeline.
What singular event do you mean? I don't understand. Also, where did I show that Austria-Hungary collapsed in the 1920s? Sorry if I forgot something very obvious, but still.
Also, Transylvania does have a Hungarian minority (in Szeklerland). And as far as I know, Vojvodina has an active secessionist movement (isn't it pro-Hungarian, too)?
I explained Vojvodina going to Hungary with the punishment of Serbia after its collaboration with Rodzaevsky's Russia.
What buildup is "poorly outlined"?
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Mikroraptor's idea for the Balkans
my proposal for the Balkans and former Austria-Hungary, 1923 CE
Some notes:
Austria and Hungary are in personal Union with each other. Czechoslovakia has recovered well, and is one of the most prosperous of the former Austrian states.
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So Yunnan was a thriving druglord state I presume? Otherwise was there being any backstory as to why it hadn't yet be reunified into China?
Also, China must be hating Mongolia so much, as occupying Ningxia made it much easier for Mongolia to threaten Beijing. But if China had chosen Nanjing or somewhere else that was not on the North they might not be hating as much.
Well. We should probably conduct polls on Japan and Austria-Hungary.
Communist, illiberal democratic I would say.
EDIT: I actually like - and will incorporate - most of your 1920s entries, KaiserEmu. I just want to reconsider Austria-Hungary's collapse. And the modern borders. Some I might modify...
Not so sure about the entries for the 1930s, though. I also like some of them, but not all.
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I hate to just jump in while we're debating two other countries, but why did the Western Australian state take the Northern Territory? To them I imagine it'd be a burden.
I don’t doubt that was the aim, but it differs significantly from what the result was.
Look at this.
Do these look like the borders of an easily defensible nation?
Just a question: why do you have to keep incorporating everyone else’s ideas into your own maps and timelines? They’re your ideas, you may as well keep them and let others have theirs. I don’t see why you feel you have to take others’ ideas and add them to your maps or timelines.
I’m referring to the Vienna Award, which was needed to keep the peace between Hungary and Romania and keep the Axis alliance together, given they were both members of said alliance and yet had competing claims. It seems as though they’ll end up on opposite sides of WWII here, in which case the victor (Hungary) is likely to get the entirety of the territory.
I know it does. The problem is that the very idea of national self-determination arose out of WWI, and with a significantly different outcome, said idea may evolve differently, leading to a different resolution the the dispute. As for Vojvodina, “active” is stretching it a bit. Pro-Hungarian is a bit of a stretch too, given the extremely heterogeneous nature of the region, but I’m not necessarily objecting to a Hungarian Vojvodina, just those specific borders. I see no way that those borders are especially viable in the long term.
I did explain it in the post. How does Germany let a totalitarian fascist regime diametrically opposed to them just straight up take five or six of their puppet states (that also happen to serve as the food bowl for Germany and thus a crucial asset)? That was why I stopped my timeline at the 1930s; I think we need to work out a better series of flashpoints and an ultimate trigger for the war.
I like this a lot; my only quibble is with Austria and Hungary in personal union. If Hungary declared independence, I can’t see them keeping their Austrian monarch. They’d either become a republic (less likely) or become an independent kingdom and appoint someone else to be king.
I have no idea why Yunnan is independent.
I also have no idea why Mongolia has Ningxia. I don’t know a lot about China, but it seems to me that that is highly unlikely?
I really have no idea; I did say it’d be a burden before, and also no historical precedent for it, so I’m not quite sure why that’s there again.
Sure, although I will point out that the idea of A-H collapsing in the 20s has been around for quite a while and hasn’t been objected to before now.
Again, why do you need to incorporate my ideas? It’s your map, you do what you want.
That was the invasion of Finland by Russia. Do you think an Invasion of Ukraine is more plausible here?
Maybe another area could see an Anschluss?
I see your ideas as well-explained and plausible, at least after thinking about them some time.
That is very interesting for example. I know quite a lot, but I don't know everything and thus I feel the need to incorporate the knowledge and ideas of other people, especially such soundly explained ones.
Regarding Deutschösterreich, I considered those borders anyway. What would you (all) think? Is an independent, a Czech, or a German Sudetenland the most plausible and interesting?
There you are right, and I just got the idea "Austria-Hungary could have lasted longer" quite spontaneously.
@Used-to-be Song Chinese , thanks a lot for the ideas on China, too. I would think a KMT government would choose a southern capital (e.g. Nanjing or Changsha or something), but what do you think about Mongolia's and China's borders (also, @XFE , what do you think?)
I desperately need such inspirations, definitely! We do want a plausible TL, after all. I think we should change the borders in Transylvania (i.e. give Hungary all of Austro-Hungarian Transylvania (or even more?)) for this Hungary to be more plausible.
@Used-to-be Song Chinese, I have been working on China ITTL for a while now, so I think that it was decided that the capital was Nanjing. As for Mongolia, well...
My thoughts on Mongolia were that Sternberg, or someone like him, takes over Mongolia, and tries to restore the Mongol empire. The regime managed to occupy Ningxia, Tuva, Inner Mongolia, and possibly even parts of Manchuria. In about 1938, the Khan dies, and Mongol self rule is restored. The borders are essentially armistice lines, drawn up hastily so that both Mongolia and China could focus on fighting the Russians.
@Red Arturoist, @KaiserEmu, what do you guys think of a briefly declared "Republik Deutschsudetenland" that is quickly absorbed by Czechoslovakia, possibly as an autonomous region?
My thoughts on Mongolia were that Sternberg, or someone like him, takes over Mongolia, and tries to restore the Mongol empire. The regime managed to occupy Ningxia, Tuva, Inner Mongolia, and possibly even parts of Manchuria. In about 1938, the Khan dies, and Mongol self rule is restored. The borders are essentially armistice lines, drawn up hastily so that both Mongolia and China could focus on fighting the Russians.
@Red Arturoist, @KaiserEmu, what do you guys think of a briefly declared "Republik Deutschsudetenland" that is quickly absorbed by Czechoslovakia, possibly as an autonomous region?
Maybe the Khan is supported by Russia and Japan? Russia could "cede" Tuva to Mongolia to get rid of some "non-Orthodox subhumans", and after World War II, the border to China remains like that and Tuva is made independent, with Manchukuo reintegrated into China?
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