Die Alte Welt Hat Überlebt- A Central Powers Victory Collaborative Timeline

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by Hindustani Person, Aug 17, 2019.

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What should Poland be?

Poll closed Sep 7, 2019.
  1. A constitutional monarchy until today

    22 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. A liberal democracy/republic

    11 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. A right-wing democracy/republic/theocracy

    7 vote(s)
    15.9%
  4. An elective monarchy

    4 vote(s)
    9.1%
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  1. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    The idea I do like most is, to be honest, the Ulimaroa thing, @KaiserEmu . I can also get used to KMT-led dominant-party China and a Sinosphere around it. That would indeed give us more room for puppet states etc.
    That is not the big problem. Sorry if my post above seems like a rant.

    My biggest issues with your plans are:
    • United Russia - just don't think that would be allowed ever again after World War II. That would be like if the Allies just restored the Kaiserreich after OTL World War II. Dalnivostok is a good idea, but should be expanded in my opinion and Russia divided in some form. I do have a new proposal for that.
    • United Indonesia - why? The same for United Indochina.
    • and the not-really-communist East Australia. Ulimaroa is an excellent idea (but why wouldn't some of the Northern Territory etc. join it, like @YaaItsRewindTime depicted)!
    EDIT: I now understand your idea of Manchuria being within United China. I'll map a proposal out myself.

    EDIT2: And now I have a plan how to incorporate a sort-of-Communist Japan into it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  2. Ferd42 Well-Known Member

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    As (self appointed) "Britain dev" I personally don't like the Ullimora thing. I had plans for the "old money" being part of the reform movement.
     
  3. mikroraptor Well-Known Member

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    @KaiserEmu, I like your China, Tsingtao, and the Dolnivostok borders. However, I think that some variation on a Red Japan should stay, I am not sure about Australia, and I think that Dolnivostok should be Green Ukraine instead. But my biggest concern is the Russian Siberia. Siberia was split off from Russia at the end of ww1, then reincorporated by Rodzhaevsky. When Russia lost ww2, I doubt that the Allies would allow them to keep it. I do agree that the Neo-Czarist state is highly implausible.

    @Red Arturoist, what do you think of this as a compromise?
     
  4. Threadmarks: Redone map by Red Arturoist

    Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    I'll now show my own proposal, and it does come close to some of your ideas indeed.

    [​IMG]

    Some proposals of my own:
    • China, now united except for Yunnan, is dominated by a party made from a big KMT and a small Communist Party. It would of course basically be the KMT.
    • Its Sinosphere includes a Jewish-dominated Green Ukraine, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Mongolia, the different nations in Myanmar, and possibly also the states in Eastern India.
    • Japan is also an ally of the Sinosphere (KMT-Sphere), but here, the communist part of the party at some point became dominant and thus, Japan is an even more red outlier.
    • New Guinea is closely allied to Germany. The Shanghai-Freistaat and Hongkong-Freistaat are illiberal capitalist democracies allied to Germany, too.
    • In Tsingtau, however: D I R E C T R U L E F R O M B E R L I N!
    • Russia is united under the Federal Democratic Soviet Republics(?) - a light-socialist economy (land, resources, and basic infrastructure like electricity and rail are nationalised, protected by a constitutional eternity clause, and any enterprise must be open to cooperation) and politically very federalised. This is basically Trałkaism from the Eternal Conflict Mapgame.
    What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  5. Thanosaekk Well-Known Member

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    Why would the Allies allow a Soviet government and how could it rise after losing the civil war?
     
  6. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    China under the KMT trends left-wing, Japan does so, too, and Germany wants to get rid of any vestiges of far-right nationalism and far-right orthodoxy.

    During the Third Civil War. The Rodzaevsky regime was not only defeated militarily, but fell to revolutions and civil war.

    Also, the type of government I described (which I have called Trałkaism in our mapgame "The Eternal Conflict") is not Soviet at all. To the contrary, it is democratic and the economy is not a planned economy either, but a sociaist market economy.
     
  7. Hindustani Person Gussie Fink-Nottle

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    why is Bengal not part of India?
     
  8. Ferd42 Well-Known Member

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    How exactly?
     
  9. KaiserEmu Emperor and Autocrat of all the Emus, etc.

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    My view is that Russia in general is fairly culturally unified and it would be hard to split Russia. I can see heavy slicing off the edges, but I can't see two (and definitely not three) Russias being sustainable. Central Asia was because I was too lazy to map something that was half off the map. I don't actually propose that it be part of Russia, although I much prefer Ella.is.crazy's proposal - it seems more organic and less reliant on Stalinist borders that simply would not exist ITTL.
    My problem is that I don't see any way for the core Russian territory to be divided in the long term. The only examples of that we have in OTL are North and South Korea and East and West Germany, and they only last(ed) thanks to vast ideological differences and significant foreign support. While nothing has actually been confirmed about alt!WWII (which needs to be rectified, BTW), I don't see any vast ideological disparities among the Allies that could prevent Russia from being a mostly united country, albeit trimmed around the edges. I personally would think that Ukraine, most of the Caucasus, Central Asia and the Far East would be seen as enough to weaken Russia.
    Sorry, I missed the bit about Siberia. In the context of it having been independent before, no, they wouldn't let Russia keep it. I could see the independence of far eastern Siberia restored, with the country falling into the Chinese sphere as quite plausible in that case, although I think that would rule out an independent Green Ukraine. I agree on the neo-tsarist state, especially given that most of the royal familiy is dead by now anyway. What exactly are your concerns about Japan and Australia?
    No, although the Allies did effectively restore a more stable Weimar Republic. I don't think that a united Russia would be entirely taboo, especially if it's been curtailed as much as we are mostly suggesting. Given the above about Siberia, Russia is even more weakened, and I was thinking that Germany would attempt to bring a weakened Russia under its control.
    Why and where? I didn't see anything about this, and this could quite significantly alter Russian post-war history. I don't see Russia returning to the discredited Soviet system anyway.
    Oh. Well. If it's not Soviet, why would the country be called Soviet?

    Also, that isn't really a socialist government at all. That's just a democratic government with state-owned enterprises.
    I was tossing up between the two and eventually thought independence seemed more plausible, given that Germany has divested itself of all its other colonies and Tsingtau has developed a somewhat distinct identity. Happy to reconsider this though.
    I was thinking more along the lines of flawed democracy like OTL South Africa or Japan, where there is an active opposition, but one too fragmented and against a too strong governing party for it to ever really have a decent shot at power.
    I'm honestly not sure how a red bloc would be able to last to the present day. If France somehow remains socialist, then I could see it leading a red bloc in Europe and North Africa, but beyond that, and a few Marxist-inspired post-colonial governments, I don't see any clear option for an overtly, institutionally red bloc.
    I don't see why a Red Bloc equals German influence in Asia, but I could see heavy German influence in South Asia especially, and maybe Indochina and the Straits.
    Left-wing yes, far-left no. As far as I can tell, Germany seems to lean centre-to-centre-right, and they historically supported the far-right when it was a choice between them and the far-left. I can see a centre-left democratic nation arising, especially as part of the Sinosphere, but far-leftism is an inherently oppositional ideology and and I believe that most powers would see it as a threat to their own power.
    Because why wouldn't Indonesia unite? Much of their early foreign policy IOTL was directed towards uniting as much as they could under the Indonesian flag, and without a United Nations to oppose their aims in West Papua, and with Britain mostly withdrawn from Asia, I see no reason why they wouldn't take over those regions. I don't like uniting nations and creating space-filling empires, but in this scenario, I don't see a way for Indonesia to be any smaller than OTL, and in fact it's hard to see them not expand on their OTL holdings.

    Besides, the lack of borders does not mean that a country is an enormous superpower. It's a common fallacy in AH that large country = stable and prosperous. Indonesia's wars of conquest will upset a lot of people, and I could see active independence movements in Aceh, Borneo, Timor and West Papua at least, maybe even an active insurgency or two somewhere. I was envisioning Indonesia as much more authoritarian than its neighbours, partly to overcome such diversity.

    I am assuming that Indochina becomes independent after WWI - I thought I saw something about that somewhere. In that case it would remain united. The only other option I can see would be for it to become a German colony, but that would be an uphill battle for the Germans (given they're fighting colonial revolts elsewhere also). I think it would be much more likely for them to sponsor an independent Indochina in which they can ensure European business interests are protected. If you have a different idea, feel free to share it.
    The Northern Territory was at the time still technically part of South Australia, and then subordinated to the Federal Government. For the NT to join, either you have to have SA join (which is unlikely given they are economically linked to the east, not the west), or for the federal government to somehow voluntarily surrender territory. I see both of these as unlikely, especially if Australia is part of the Sinosphere, in which case Darwin becomes a key link to East Asia.
    That's fine. I wasn't expecting the vast majority of the 'old money' to go there anyway, and significant parts would probably return. I just felt that it was a more interesting approach than having them go to Canada, which seems to be the default in scenarios like these. I was thinking that just enough would stay to make it interesting, and just enough would go in the first place so as to leave their mark on the country.
    Yes, the UK has reformed. However, I see Ulimaroa as less a Britain-in-exile, but more an Australia with greater British influence, developing a culture that would be something like what you'd get if you put Texas, England, and Australia in a blender. Most British émigrés will have returned to a post-Proactivist Britain by now, but their cultural and political influence remains, and those who didn't return to Britain have some of the greatest political clout.
    What important aspects do you see as destroyed? As far as I can see, the only vital aspect is that the Central Powers win WWI, however I've tried to adhere to existing canon as much as possible, while I've tried to make sure my ideas strike a balance between plausibility and originality. What Germany thing are you talking about, and why is it so important that Japan be red for that?

    I'll try to put together a revised plan soon.
     
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  10. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    I would like an independent Bengal, but I'll leave you a free hand in India.

    I already saw why United Russia is more plausible than a divided one, and thus, I united Russia on my last map.

    I see this idea as more socialist than most governments of OTL and most governments of TTL. Also, the name of a nation is open to debate - if it is implausible that Trałkaist Russia is called "Soviet", then we will revise the name. I anyway thought aobut whether Soviet should be included or not.

    Did I really not write about this civil war anymore?

    The proposal was for Rodzaevsky's Russia to create a Jewish "Ethnostate" to keep them out, and this is adopted after World War II.

    That is important information, thanks again!

    Excellent idea on Ullimaroa, and this country would certainly be controversial regarding human rights and environmental protection etc.

    @mikroraptor , then I would prefer to stay with Green Ukraine to be honest.

    As my map shows, I have incorporated many of your ideas. I don't think you need to put forward a revised plan, though of course you can.
    I have stated in the German parties post that the largest immigrant minority in TTLs Germany is East Asian, that is what I loved so much. But that can probably happen with a KMT China, too.

    @KaiserEmu , as you have said that the KMT is explicitly left-wing, but not far-left: What are its ideas, then? I don't know much about the KMT at all. Is it maybe like Atatürk's CHP (because that was my most recent vision for the Sinosphere

    Germany is probably one of the most centrist nations ITTL. And they have had quite left-wing governments (imagine the Tanne chancellorship!)

    Didn't know that. I thought that OTL INdonesia was more or less forcibly kept united. But if they desired to be united, then it's a wholly different thing.

    Thanks for clearing that up, too.

    @KaiserEmu , I just hope that you have seen my most recent proposal which incorporates many of your ideas, but gives them another twist.

    Why would an independent Indochina after World War I be, and stay, united? I want that to be part of the Sinosphere.

    Okay, I'll have to build on France and Brazil then.

    It hasn't as far as I know? To the contrary, Togo, Dahomey and Namibia, as well as Zanzibar, are still German.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  11. Hindustani Person Gussie Fink-Nottle

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    Should the Falklands go to Germany?
     
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  12. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    Oh, now that's interesting. Die Falklandinseln sind deutsch!
     
  13. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    As my map shows, I have incorporated many of your ideas. I don't think you need to put forward a revised plan, though of course you can.
    I have stated in the German parties post that the largest immigrant minority in TTLs Germany is East Asian, that is what I loved so much. But that can probably happen with a KMT China, too.

    @KaiserEmu , as you have said that the KMT is explicitly left-wing, but not far-left: What are its ideas, then? I don't know much about the KMT at all. Is it maybe like Atatürk's CHP (because that was my most recent vision for the Sinosphere, including Laos, Korea etc.)?
     
  14. KaiserEmu Emperor and Autocrat of all the Emus, etc.

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    Well, what exactly distinguishes it from a democratic government with state-owned enterprises? My general idea for a name would be either Russian Republic or Russian Federal Republic, nothing too overtly ideological, given what happened last time.
    I haven't seen anything on it. I can't imagine that a civil war would last very long either, given the country is being, you know, invaded by Germany. I suspect when the first German troops cross the border, most combatants would either join with Germany to overthrow the regime, or join with the government to keep the invaders out. Once German occupation is established, I don't think a civil war would be possible, although politics could be quite polarised for a while.
    I thought from the polls we reached the conclusion that there'd only be one Israel in the Levant?
    Human rights? No. Environmental protection? Yes. Are you seriously suggesting they just leave all those minerals in the ground? There's good money to be made there, I'll have you know, sir!
    What about an independent state from much of the OTL Far East Federal District that is fairly decentralised, with autonomous Yakut and Green Ukraine regions? Thus Siberian independence is restored (which seems logical if Siberia became independent) but at the same time there's still a Green Ukraine (although I'd prefer its alternative name, Transcathay, because it's more distinct and less prone to confusion).
    You can maintain an East Asian minority in Germany without a Red Japan, in fact it would probably be easier thanks to fewer immigration restrictions. My only qualm is if Germany retains some of its colonies, I'd expect Africans to outnumber East Asians.
    IOTL, the modern-day KMT is right-wing, but much of that is thanks to their conflict with the CCP. From mikoraptor's maps, I can't see the CCP, so most likely their pact with the KMT continues and they are eventually absorbed after Mao carks it somehow. Without a defining conflict against the communists, TTL's KMT evolves to take a more left-wing approach to the Three Principles of the People (often simplified to nationalism, democracy and welfare), which remain the fundamental principles of the state. It does bear a number of similarities to Kemalism, although it is distinct.
    I have no idea what you mean there. My only question is did you really name a chancellor after a tree?
    Why would an independent Indochina after World War I not be united? And furthermore, why can't it be part of the Sinosphere?
    Oh. Alright. That strikes me as very strange. Is there no decolonisation movement ITTL? If we want to keep them closely tied to the metropole, could I suggest something like a Compact of Free Association, with an arrangement somewhat like this:

    Germany acts on behalf of Zanzibar/Togo/Namibia in foreign affairs and defence issues, but only with the advice and consent of the local government. Germany also provides economic support and access to German social services for residents of these areas, who hold the status of 'nationals' of their home state, but are Citizens of the German Realm, bear German passports and are aided by German consular officials. While other states maintain diplomatic relations with them, the German government's position is that they are 'self-governing but not sovereign'.​

    Perhaps this arrangement could apply to Tsingtau too, and other former German colonies.
     
  15. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    How do you like my newest map, @KaiserEmu (where I have incorporated maany, if not most, of your suggestions for Eastern Asia)?

    Okay, it probably is more democratic than far-left, there you are right, but workers' cooperatives are an important part of its economy. Akin to the Mondragon Cooperative of OTL.

    Thanks for the input on the name. I'll consider that.

    That's a good point of course. I thought about East Asians replacing OTL South European (including Turkish) immigration of the 1950s-1970s.

    The name Gregor Tanne came up in the name generator. But you are right, "Tanne" refers to a fir tree.

    Thanks for confirming me there. Together with the (small) CCP, the KMT might become even more Kemalist, mightn't it?
    Thus, our disagreement now lies beyond China. We have found a good solution for China, Korea, Mongolia, Japan, and a Sinosphere! That's excellent! Thanks for your constructive help on this timeline.

    Red Japan could just be included in the Sinosphere, couldn't it?

    I don't think as many ethnicities as there are in Indochina could stay united. But I don't know that much about Indochina to be honest.

    There is, and that is why most of Mittelafrika is independent, but it is much more moderate. Why do you think Germany couldn't maintain Togo, Dahomey, Namibia, Zanzibar and Tsingtau?

    Your Compact of Association idea is excellent for areas like Shanghai, Hong Kong, New Guinea, Kamerun etc.!

    No, and that is why I think Ullimaroa will be extremely controversial with Green Parties worldwide.

    No problem with calling it Transcathay, either. I also like the name Transcathay.
    What about the idea of making it a second Jewish nation? Regarding the poll it was mostly about my idea of a Jewish Uganda. That was rejected.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  16. Ferd42 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think we should keep German gains over seas to a minumium. Kenya should be the limit.
     
  17. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    Honestly, I do get to like your idea of a loose Siberian Confederation nation - maybe as loose as the US under the Articles of Confederation?
     
  18. mikroraptor Well-Known Member

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    The posts above are too long for me to reasonably quote, so here goes. @Red Arturoist, @KaiserEmu, what about a Far Eastern Republic, that breaks from the Sinosphere, but a Chinese backed uprising in Green Ukraine succeeded in gaining independence? It might not be a predominantly Jewish country, but I think that it would definitely have a significant minority. As for the Falklands, I imagine that the first thing that Romanists in Argentina are going to do is make sure that ¡Los Malvinas Son Argentinas!
     
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  19. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    Excellent idea, and a good compromise!

    Maybe even a Jewish plurality, but a majority is indeed not that likely.

    And here, you see this implemented:

    [​IMG]
     
  20. KaiserEmu Emperor and Autocrat of all the Emus, etc.

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    I haven’t had the chance to have a detailed look at it yet.
    That could work, although if such a close relationship is maintained with the colonies as is being suggested, I think they’d outnumber East Asians.
    I’m glad I could help.

    It depends on how radical Japan is. If they insist on overthrowing all private property owners and exporting the revolution abroad, no. If they’re comparatively moderate and pragmatic, it’s possible.
    It’s probably less diverse than many OTL countries, although whether it would last is something for broader discussion.
    Because combined, those regions have a population of about 45 million in the modern day, which would make up somewhere around 30-40% of Germany's population overall, and I think that’s too much for both a relatively conservative society to accept, and too many people oppressed by colonialism in the country that it would seem to me that it would be mutually beneficial for most parts at least to split from Germany under a free association agreement, if not outright independence.
    Just a question: how does Germany get Shanghai?
    I was partly joking there, just so you know.
    Oh. I thought this
    Meant the Levant would be home to the only Israel in the TL. Certainly Rodzaevzky could deport many Jews there, potentially even founding a state there during the war, but I’d think it’d be dissolved afterwards and incorporated into a greater nation. I’m not saying we can’t have a substantial Jewish minority though.
    I can’t see the Falkland Islanders accepting it, and I can’t see why Germany would want it.
    Not that loose. The AOC US was really 13 independent nations, with the US serving as a sort of EU, but weaker. I was thinking about the level of autonomy associated with Gorbachev’s Nee Union Treaty.
    The problem with that is there’s almost nothing left in the Far Eastern Republic if Green Ukraine breaks off - it’s just frozen tundra with no reason to exist. I suspect a federation with high autonomy would be most likely.
     
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