Die Alte Welt Hat Überlebt- A Central Powers Victory Collaborative Timeline

[Red Arturoist]

...Yeah, that revanchist movement probably wins easily.

Not so easily anymore with that large of a communist union.

 

[InfernoMole]

I don’t think the Central Powers would be able to win WWI it the United States joined

Of course. Either Wilson actually keeps on his promise that he campaigned on in 1916, or Hughes wins California and steers away Germany with his "necessary preparations". Both will have a rather interesting effect, with Irish-Americans becoming even more stalwart supporters of the Dems and/or Hughes (and Republicans by proxy) being smeared as Wall Street-serving jingoists by Democrats, for example.

I expanded upon my map, including a large(r) Communist state in Western Europe:

Sorry, not really a fan of this Communist state (how does this Latin Union even work?), Germany would definitely ensure that this colossus right at their border doesn't come into existence. Though, the (independent?) Katanga is interesting - what year is this supposed to be?

 

[ETGalaxy]

Of course. Either Wilson actually keeps on his promise that he campaigned on in 1916, or Hughes wins California and steers away Germany with his "necessary preparations". Both will have a rather interesting effect, with Irish-Americans becoming even more stalwart supporters of the Dems and/or Hughes (and Republicans by proxy) being smeared as Wall Street-serving jingoists by Democrats, for example.

A Democratic Roaring Twenties could be pretty interesting. Laissez-Faire and socially conservative policies could also serve for some good powder keg for a revolution if people wanted to go down that path. I think the Republicans will probably turn into a progressive party, at least socially. There can’t be a return to normalcy without a deviation from normalcy, and the Wilson administration will probably be more affiliated with his social conservatism without intervention in WWI.

 

[InfernoMole]

A Democratic Roaring Twenties could be pretty interesting. Laissez-Faire and socially conservative policies could also serve for some good powder keg for a revolution if people wanted to go down that path. I think the Republicans will probably turn into a progressive party, at least socially. There can’t be a return to normalcy without a deviation from normalcy, and the Wilson administration will probably be more affiliated with his social conservatism without intervention in WWI.

Yeah, definitely! Isolationism would still dominate American politics in either case, so presumably the Democrats try to appeal to these sentiments somewhat. I imagine someone like William Gibbs McAdoo would benefit massively in this case, since he has Southern backing while still supporting certain economically progressive measures and his ties to the Wilson administration being a plus, though President McAdoo would certainly have problems come Teapot Dome Scandal or the D. C. Stephenson scandal, to a far greater degree than what the scandal did to Harding and the Republicans IOTL.

 

[Red Arturoist]

Though, the (independent?) Katanga is interesting - what year is this supposed to be?

I am working on a 2019 map, and yes, that is an independent (but German-aligned and of course capitalist!) Katanga.

 

[InfernoMole]

I am working on a 2019 map, and yes, that is an independent (but German-aligned and of course capitalist!) Katanga.

Katanga would potentially be a modest regional power in Africa... if there were people who could wrest that power from European investors. But that isn't entirely likely, so I imagine the Katangan government has to deal with a socialist insurgency early on.

 

[Red Arturoist]

@InfernoMole , I admit I was unsure about mainland spain myself. I want Euskara and Catalonia in this communist state, but I might change Spain.

 

[ETGalaxy]

Yeah, definitely! Isolationism would still dominate American politics in either case, so presumably the Democrats try to appeal to these sentiments somewhat. I imagine someone like William Gibbs McAdoo would benefit massively in this case, since he has Southern backing while still supporting certain economically progressive measures and his ties to the Wilson administration being a plus, though President McAdoo would certainly have problems come Teapot Dome Scandal or the D. C. Stephenson scandal, to a far greater degree than what the scandal did to Harding and the Republicans IOTL.

McAdoo could be fun. The 1920 Democratic primaries actually had a lot of scary candidates, and if we wanted to have the United States get overthrown sometime later, candidates like A Mitchell Palmer and Carter Glass would also be good choices. Would any third parties rise in this time period?

I am working on a 2019 map, and yes, that is an independent (but German-aligned and of course capitalist!) Katanga.

I like the map thus far, but AFAIK the plan is to decide what the post-WWI map looks like first and then go from there.

 

[InfernoMole]

The 1920 Democratic primaries actually had a lot of scary candidates, and if we wanted to have the United States get overthrown sometime later, candidates like A Mitchell Palmer and Carter Glass would also be good choices.

Oh yeah, Glass and Palmer are s p o o k y, though one could have Furnifold "Leader of a Bloody Coup d'Etat" Simmons ascend to the White House as well.

Would any third parties rise in this time period?

Depends.

 

[ETGalaxy]

Oh yeah, Glass and Palmer are s p o o k y, though one could have Furnifold "Leader of a Bloody Coup d'Etat" Simmons ascend to the White House as well.

...Yeah, I just looked up that guy, and yikes. My one problem with him is that he might somehow be too much of a fringe candidate to win in 1920. He’d do great in the south, but I can’t really see him doing well anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Depends.

Do you want there to be some kind of revolution in the United States? If so, whatever organization primarily leads this revolution should probably see its origins in the 1920s.

 

[InfernoMole]

Do you want there to be some kind of revolution in the United States?

Not really, actually. When I was thinking of a third party in this period, I was thinking of either Dan Moody or John W. Davis leading some sort of conservative "American Party" should Al Smith or another rather liberal candidate somehow be nominated.

 

[ETGalaxy]

Not really, actually. When I was thinking of a third party in this period, I was thinking of either Dan Moody or John W. Davis leading some sort of conservative "American Party" should Al Smith or another rather liberal candidate somehow be nominated.

Alright, that works. If the Democratic Party does split in two, I’d say that the American Party is, as you said, conservative while the Democrats become more populist. I know it’s cliched, but something along the lines of Huey Long’s ideology makes sense for the Democrats IMO, or at least a similar populist ideology.

 

[Red Arturoist]

Why do you not want a revolution?

 

[ETGalaxy]

Anyway, it turns out the Empire of Japan had a small anarcho-syndicalist/anarcho-communist movement in OTL, so if we wanted to do something really unique we could go along the lines of some kind of syndicalist Japan or Co-Prosperity.

 

[Oliveia]

Bit of a WIP, but here's my proposal for Europe by, say... 1930-40?

Details I couldn't convey through a map:
*Second Spanish Republic is a thing here, though more federal and conservative (the upper-class of Spain was pro-Germany, so I wouldn't doubt that Germany would try to make sure they still had some power in Spain)
*France is still claiming Alsace-Lorraine, with some irridentists going so far as to claim Luxembourg, too.
*A Poland that is hotly contested between Germany and A-H
*A United Kingdom of Yugoslavia which claims the Slavic provinces of Austria-Hungary (Croatia-Slavonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Carniola, and Istria), as well as some proponents of union with Albania or Bulgaria.
*A massively revanchist Greece which wants to decimate Bulgaria
*A Ukraine that is, though ruled by a Hohenzollern, far more independent than Byelorussia or the United Baltic Duchies. It is, technically, the United Kingdom of Greater Ukraine (comprised of Ukraine Proper, Crimea, Kuban, and Circassia)
*Maybe some other stuff I'll decide on later.

IDEAS I HAVE:
*United Arab State (the French and Brits would value an ally in the region, as opposed to more land to divvy up. I'm suggesting that the Brits respect the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence as opposed to Sykes-Picot).
*Balkanized Caucasus (based mostly off of OTL Russian Civil War -- Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Mountainous Republic, etc.)
*Rump Russia under Tsar Michael III

 

[Red Arturoist]

I don't think that Ukraine mashes well, but this could be something like "the day *Russian!Hitler came to power" - then this would work perfectly, @Bennett !

 

[ETGalaxy]

Here’s my idea for a list of American presidents from Woodrow Wilson to a few decades after the POD:

• Woodrow Wilson (Democratic Party) 1913-1921
• William Gibbs McAdoo (Democratic Party) 1921-1929
• Alfred Smith (Democratic Party) 1929-1933
• Charles Curtis (Republican Party) 1933-1936
• Frank Orren Lowden (Republican Party) 1936-1937
• Jacob Coxey (Democratic-Labor Party) 1937-1949

Alright, so just to explain things, my basic idea is to take what @InfernoMole and I discussed and make the Democrats a socially conservative but slightly populist party throughout the 1920s before the economy collapses in the United States around the same time as OTL. When the more progressive Al Smith is nominated in 1928, the Democratic Party splits in two, with conservatives forming the American Party while progressives and populists maintain control over the Democrats. After the market liberal Republicans do a mediocre job in the early 1930s, the Democrats and Farmer-Labor Party merge to form the social democratic and populist Democratic-Labor Party, with Jacob Coxey serving three terms (likely due to a WWII-esque conflict in the 1940s).

Hopefully this looks good, but I’m open to retcons.

 

[ETGalaxy]

Bit of a WIP, but here's my proposal for Europe by, say... 1930-40?
View attachment 481235
Details I couldn't convey through a map:
*Second Spanish Republic is a thing here, though more federal and conservative (the upper-class of Spain was pro-Germany, so I wouldn't doubt that Germany would try to make sure they still had some power in Spain)
*France is still claiming Alsace-Lorraine, with some irridentists going so far as to claim Luxembourg, too.
*A Poland that is hotly contested between Germany and A-H
*A United Kingdom of Yugoslavia which claims the Slavic provinces of Austria-Hungary (Croatia-Slavonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Carniola, and Istria), as well as some proponents of union with Albania or Bulgaria.
*A massively revanchist Greece which wants to decimate Bulgaria
*A Ukraine that is, though ruled by a Hohenzollern, far more independent than Byelorussia or the United Baltic Duchies. It is, technically, the United Kingdom of Greater Ukraine (comprised of Ukraine Proper, Crimea, Kuban, and Circassia)
*Maybe some other stuff I'll decide on later.

IDEAS I HAVE:
*United Arab State (the French and Brits would value an ally in the region, as opposed to more land to divvy up. I'm suggesting that the Brits respect the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence as opposed to Sykes-Picot).
*Balkanized Caucasus (based mostly off of OTL Russian Civil War -- Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Mountainous Republic, etc.)
*Rump Russia under Tsar Michael III

This looks really good! The Ukrainian borders are nice, and I think this scenario makes sense while remaining unique. The Balkans are a tad bit cliche IMO, but that’s really just a nitpick. I also have to wonder how the Austro-Hungarian Empire is doing by this point.

 

[Gabingston]

Yeah, I could see the Germans holding onto something like Togoland up to the present day (sorta like French Guiana), but holding onto all of Mittelafrika seems implausible

I think the Germans may very well hold onto Namibia to the present, especially if it eventually becomes majority German.

 

[Oliveia]

This looks really good! The Ukrainian borders are nice, and I think this scenario makes sense while remaining unique. The Balkans are a tad bit cliche IMO, but that’s really just a nitpick. I also have to wonder how the Austro-Hungarian Empire is doing by this point.

I am shamelessly basing this off of some old MOTF submission I made, but I imagined Austria-Hungary eventually facing off against Germany due to conflicting interests.