Die Alte Welt Hat Überlebt- A Central Powers Victory Collaborative Timeline

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by Hindustani Person, Aug 17, 2019.

?

What should Poland be?

Poll closed Sep 7, 2019.
  1. A constitutional monarchy until today

    22 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. A liberal democracy/republic

    11 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. A right-wing democracy/republic/theocracy

    7 vote(s)
    15.9%
  4. An elective monarchy

    4 vote(s)
    9.1%
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  1. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    Together with a syndicalist or democratic socialist Japan? That would be cool!
     
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  2. KaiserEmu Emperor and Autocrat of all the Emus, etc.

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    Have we though? If you actually look at the poll, there’s a majority of votes for some form of democratic Australia, just varying on the type. With three options, it does not work well as a runoff poll.

    Because WA seceding but leaving Australia as a democratic constitutional state has precedent, but East and West Australia at each other’s throats, while both adhering to radically different ideologies with no historical basis in Australia does not.

    Again, do these ideas have historical precedent? Are there historical movements that could plausibly have obtained power? Does this work with other established canon? How could such ideologies have taken power in societies where they are antithetical to all the society stands for?

    And herein lies the problem. If you still haven’t determined a POD, everything else - and I mean everything - is still moot. The POD determines the following events. You have to know what the POD is because that informs:
    • Germany’s status at the end of the war
    • Thus how much control it exerts over Central and Eastern Europe
    • If revolutions occur in any states, and if so, which ones
    • How revanchist states are
    • How stable the post-war order is
    And all of that determines the events of the following decades, up to the modern day.
    Only once a POD is decided can the rest of the world be developed.

    Also, please don’t double-post like this. It clogs up the thread and makes it harder to read when you could just edit your post, and pinging a user four times in three minutes is not a way to get on their good side.
     
  3. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    Well... we do try to listen to each others' ideas more, but why do they also have to have some historical precedent. I think we should not be too strict in adhering to plausibility standards. Or should we?

    What does that mean? Should we thus not adhere to the poll results?
     
  4. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    This actually occurred to me, too. But the issue here is that two options were tied for second place in the first poll. Should I hold another runoff poll?

    Red Japan with an according Red sphere in East Asia does indeed work with established canon. That is one of the things we are paying attention to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  5. mikroraptor Well-Known Member

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    I have made a proposal for the POD before, but I guess I will write it down again, and if you like, we can have a poll on it.

    My thoughts were that Germany backed off on its unrestricted submarine warfare, which keeps the United States out of the war. Then, France has a (German Backed) socialist revolution in about 1916-1917,and at the same time, German backed colonial rebellions succeed, causing the collapse of the western front. The eastern front progresses much like OTL, and the war ends in about November 1917, though an official treaty is not signed until 1920
     
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  6. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    I like the proposal, but I think the war would end quite a bit later. Spring/Summer 1919 maybe?
     
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  7. mikroraptor Well-Known Member

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    The only reason I pushed the date back that far was so I could explain how Germany was able to project its power over Eastern Europe and half of Africa. The longer the war drags on, the weaker everyone is at the end, including Germany
     
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  8. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    I am counting German support, e.g. for the French revolutionaries etc., as part of the war here.
     
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  9. Gabzcervo Timeline raises FAQs

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    And what about an idea of list of German chancellors? I guess that the current ruling party will be NLP or Liberal.
     
  10. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    I already made such a list, and it is in the threadmarked German Politics post.
     
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  11. KaiserEmu Emperor and Autocrat of all the Emus, etc.

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    That’s for everyone to reach a consensus on. I personally think that AH is far more interesting when there are reasons for events occurring, rather than new regimes simply arising because it looks cool on a map. Not every single idea suggested has to be used. If you take other factors into account, the worldbuilding is far deeper and logical. Historical precedent is important because events do not occur in isolation; they are all connected, and thus the nature of each society, it’s foreign relations, its current status etc determine what occurs there. Certainly a decision can be reached to be lax on plausibility, but no decision has yet been reached.

    It would have been a far better decision to reach decisions on Australia in a logical order, i.e.:
    1. Is Australia divided?
    2. If so, what are the borders?
    3. What are the various regime types?
    It’s a decision for everyone as to what to do with Australia, although I’d suggest not taking the results as gospel truth because of the inherent weakness in running a poll on assumed truth like “Australia is divided”, and running a runoff with three options.

    No, not necessarily. You just need to take into account that the votes for Red East Australia were a minority, and establish a consensus based on discussion and mutual agreement. You can have too many polls, you know.

    Those were more general criteria to be considered when making every decision. Established canon, however, is broader than just the region (e.g. would other countries stage an intervention if heir key Pacific ally suddenly had a revolution out of nowhere?). This is especially important given that I have not seen any other established canon for East Asia.

    That doesn’t really count as part of the war. If inter-state hostilities ended and an armistice was signed in 1917, then the war ended in 1917. The US still has troops in Germany today. Should we therefore say WW2 is ongoing?

    It hasn’t been discussed and made canon yet though, so @Gabzcervo , if you want to make a different proposal, feel free! I might post some of my ideas shortly too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  12. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    Well, the list of German chancellors and parties etc. has been accepted as far as I know. Why do you think it is not canon yet, @KaiserEmu ? It did get threadmarked.

    As far as I can see, nobody has yet objected to the poll results. Of course one could have too many polls, that is correct, but I don't think more discussion is needed on Australia. We have incorporated most people into the decision, haven't we?

    That was part of the polls, too. So not just an "assumed truth". A poll did come out with the result that the borders were liked by most voters.

    Honestly, how strong do you want a consensus to be? Everyone in agreement?

    And we will provide reasons. Of course we will provide reasons for a Red Japanosphere! And never have I suggested that every single idea has to beused either?

    No? We cooperate on this basis already, even if there was no formal decision. We could hold a poll of course, but otherwise?

    That is mostly a semantic point, sorry. I can agree with the actual war (Great War/World War I) ending in 1917.

    Potential allies of Japan in the time period we were aiming for the revolution have either fallen to Romanism/Proactivism (Britain) or are likely isolationist (USA). I don't want to limit canon or anything, or limit the scope of this world, but I do think your standards on consensus as well as on how something can become canon are too high. We do think about more than the country, the region, when establishing something.
     
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  13. Threadmarks: Polish History

    mikroraptor Well-Known Member

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    POLAND IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY: From the Succession Crisis of 1918 to the Present Day
    Flag of the Polish Republic.png

    Flag of the Republic of Poland, adopted in 1973.

    Poland has had a long, violent history, full of brief rises and crashing falls. This culminated with the Third partition of Poland in 1794. the country ceased to exist for more than a century.
    But then, the Great war shattered the status quo that had existed in Europe. As Russia was pushed back by the central powers in 1916, Germany and Austria-Hungary occupied the lands that were formerly the Congress Kingdom of Poland. The Germans proclaimed that they were "Liberating the Poles from the yoke of Russian Tyranny" and that they would establish a Polish state for the first time since 1794.
    A "Regency Government" was set up, though it had no actual power, as the nation was still under Austro-German occupation. Many Poles felt that this was simply another partition, and massive protests began in several cities. Meanwhile, a massive debate was brewing over who should be the king of this new nation. Several German houses claimed the throne, as did the House of Hapsburg. Eventually, the germans selected tha House of Wurttemburg as their candidate for the throne, and Albrecht I of Poland was coronated. The Austrians were highly displeased, and instead of allowing their half of Poland to join with the Kingdom, they established the "Grand Duchy of Lesser Poland" in the south, run by a regent for the Hapsburg claimant to the throne. CP victory Polska 6l.png
    The Two Polands, 1918
    The Grand Duchy lasted about six months, as Austria-Hungary began to implode due to ethnic conflicts. The Austrians withdrew, and Albrecht marched into Krakow unopposed. Poland was a united, independent country again. But how independent was it? German troops still occupied the country, the economy was almost entirely dependent on Germany, and the king could veto any bills he did not like in the Sejm. Poland was a puppet state, little more. But, Poland's Prime Minister, Wladyslaw Studnicki, worked with the Germans to rebuild Poland's economy, industrialize Poland, establish a seperate Polish army (albeit a small one), and, through a series of Plebescites, Purchases, and Annexations, he doubled the size of Poland in the era between 1919 and 1926
    CP victory Polska Territorial evolution l.png
    Territorial Evolution of Poland
    Poland was hit hard by the Great Economic Collapse* of the 1930s. And as Rodzhaevsky rose to power in Russia, more German troops poured into the country. Some felt that life might be better if they switched sides, and joined Rodzhaevsky's Axis, but these were a minority. When war finally was declared, Poland was on the German side. Despite massive amounts of aid from Germany, Poland fell within a few months, as the Russian tanks used a Blitzkreig strategy that would become infamous later on. Poland was annexed directly into the Russian State in 1943. CP victory Polska ww2.png
    Eastern Europe under Rodzhaevsky, 1944
    Poles were deemed "Traitors to the Slavic Faith", and many were sent to Gulags* in Siberia. The rest were forced into the Polonian military district, while the rest of Poland was settled with Russians. The Orthodox majority people of Bukovina were spared the harsh treatment of the catholic Poles.
    They didn't get far with this, as the liberation of Europe in 1947 and the collapse of the Russian state ended these programs. Bukovina was put under military occupation, and remains under Military control to this day, making it one of the longest lasting military occupations in history. Poland was freed from Russia, and even gained a slice of Belarus in the peace treaty, but they were still a puppet of the German Empire. In the 1960s, the Solidarity movement was formed, though it was unable to make much headway until the late 1960s, and began massive (peaceful) protests against the German troops stationed in Poland, and the monarchy in general. This coincided with the Bürgerrechtsbewegung (Civil Rights Movement) in Germany, which advocated, in part, for self determination and a withdrawal of German Troops from Poland.
    In 1969, the German Chancellor announced the withdrawal of German forces from Poland. The Solidarity movement swept the Sejm, and called for a new Constitution to be ratified. This new Constitution was modeled of the American system, with a President being the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, a powerful Sejm, and a Supreme Court. This meant that the King, and the Royal Courts would be dismantled. In 1971, the Constitution was ratified, and the last king of Poland, Boleslaw Von Wurttemburg, abdicated on the 1st of September.

    Poland has since rapidly modernized, though it still has major economic challenges. Another concern is Poland's rapid militarization, going from a standing army of 18,900 in 1972, to 89,000, with an additional 100,000 in reserves. Also Poland has begun a nuclear program, though with little success so far. Poland is still a rather democratic nation, though some worry that the rising Polish Heritage party might try to change that.
    CP victory Polska 1.png
    Map of the Republic of Poland Today, showing Administrative Subdivisions
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  14. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    Let's move the rise of Solidarność to the later 1960s, as then we can have a big overlap between Bürgerrechtsbewegung and the 73er-Bewegung I mentioned in the German parties post.
    And announcing the withdrawal from Poland could be the first move of Adolf Hauswald after he takes office as Chancellor of Germany. Would that be okay?

    Also, the polls have not yet decided on the issue of constitutional monarchy or Republic. However, I do like your ideas and your map a lot! Thanks for them! @Jan Olbracht and @Augenis - how do you like it, mostly @Jan Olbracht as a Pole? Maybe you could propose Polish terms etc. to incorporate?

    And we should come to a consensus on the borders of Poland. I actually like the borders you made without the bit that you designated as "annexed in 1947". I would give that to Baltoslavia.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  15. mikroraptor Well-Known Member

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    I think that makes sense. I'm still on the fence about Baltoslavia though.
     
  16. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    This should be the next area of polls, shouldn't it?
     
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  17. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

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    With less eastern Belarus but with western Volhynia Poland would look a bit better.
     
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  18. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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  19. mikroraptor Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! Should I redo the election map with those borders?
     
  20. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    As it seems like Poland will be a liberal democracy after all, yes, please do so.
     
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