Did the volkssturm changed anything?

[Gukpard]

The volkssturm was the last ditch effort to prevent the axis defeat in the war, but as we know the defeat was garanteed since Kursk, and so most of us take it as a effort to slow down the german defeat

but the thing is, the people used on the volkssturm could have worked in the factories or in the collapsing infraestructure, plus they were barely armed to fight against the well trained soviet and allied armies, and so I came up with a question: Did the volkssturm did exactly the opposite of it's original intent and sped up the fall of the third reich? Because they had little combat value, and they were not working on the war effort by another means

 

[stubear1012]

It is my understanding that the sight of grandfathers and children marching with old weapons or no weapons was very demoralizing to the German people. It made it clear that defeat was near.

 

[Roches]

What strikes me about the Volkssturm is that they are essentially the same concept as the British Home Guard, although the latter had a minimum age of 17. Both forces were poorly equipped; the Volkssturm at least had the Panzerfaust while the Home Guard was supposedly going to deal with tanks by mines and old soup plates. Yet the Home Guard is seen as a sign of national determination, not desperation, probably because it was voluntary and its members never went into combat.

Comparison aside, I don't think the Volkssturm changed the length of the war by much. That's because the length of the war is determined, in the end, by the Battle of Berlin rather than the campaign in the west. The Red Army entered Germany on 16 April 1945, entered Berlin on 23 April and won the Battle of Berlin on 2 May. So the total length of time during which the Volkssturm could contribute to combat affecting the length of the war was about two weeks. The Volkssturm made up a significant part (almost half) of the defenders of Berlin, but that battle was decisively concluded within a week and the urban combat tactics used by the Volkssturm defenders were quite readily overcome by Soviet artillery and flamethrowers.

Stalin wanted to capture Berlin on 1 May. If there hadn't been any Volkssturm, he may have gotten that.

 

[Shinsu]

The Volksstrum were used from the tail end of 1944 (December 1944) until the capture of Berlin, their effectiveness was normally pretty poor outside of some units that did decently even when they were equipped with little. They didn't really speed up or delay the fall by any significant margin, at most they may have delayed it by the span of a week or two at max just due to the fact that the Germans had something in the way of Soviet units.

The Units strained what remained of weaponry and ammunition systems since everything was used including muskets and crossbows (they were equipped with I mean), you had massively varying calibers of artillery, weapons, tanks etc. but having that cleared up would have made next to no difference.

 

[King Augeas]

The role of the Home Guard was to slow down the invaders and make them use supplies, to buy time while the regular army redeployed and the RN scattered the barge convoys.

This role didn't exist for the Volkssturm.

 

[naraic]

What strikes me about the Volkssturm is that they are essentially the same concept as the British Home Guard, although the latter had a minimum age of 17. Both forces were poorly equipped; the Volkssturm at least had the Panzerfaust while the Home Guard was supposedly going to deal with tanks by mines and old soup plates. Yet the Home Guard is seen as a sign of national determination, not desperation, probably because it was voluntary and its members never went into combat.

The difference of course is that Britain expected to use the homeguard in a sealion situation where Germany gets a purely infantry force onto beaches somewhere. Large number of tanks were not expected in any sea lion. Therefore the homeguards old men and boys would have been sufficient to deal with the duties they were required to perform. If Germany managed a sea lion and control of a port and dominance of the English channel and landing tanks the home guard would have been seen as stupid desperation.

 

[pdf27]

The difference of course is that Britain expected to use the homeguard in a sealion situation where Germany gets a purely infantry force onto beaches somewhere. Large number of tanks were not expected in any sea lion. Therefore the homeguards old men and boys would have been sufficient to deal with the duties they were required to perform. If Germany managed a sea lion and control of a port and dominance of the English channel and landing tanks the home guard would have been seen as stupid desperation.

It's also worth remembering here that the majority of the Home Guard will have had prior military service, in WW1 (this shows through in Dad's Army, where the majority of the platoon are WW1 veterans) - by September 1940 they had been (mostly) equipped with the sort of kit they would have used in 1918, and the logistical situation meant that the Germans were only able to attack with something very similar. That rather tends to suggest that the Home Guard were potentially pretty effective.
That same situation didn't exist in Germany - the Volkssturm had a higher percentage of the very old and young boys, and indeed many of the WW1 veterans had found themselves in Heer units. Weapons were of the Ersatz rather than familiar variety, and the enemy they were facing had advanced hugely since 1918 - with the last factor being the most crucial.

 

[Mike D]

Yet the Home Guard is seen as a sign of national determination, not desperation, probably because it was voluntary and its members never went into combat.

Don't forget that England/Britain/the UK has never had a large army in our history (1915-19 and 1939 through to the 1990s are massive historical anomalies). Our defence has always been based on our navy, a small regular army and the trained bands/milita/fencibles/yeomanry/TA.

The Home Guard fits neatly into the British psyche of the men leaving the plough and picking up a musket to face off against the Dons and Frogs. It's basically what we've always done.

The continental powers, on the other hand, have always had large standing armies because their threat has always come by land. Needing to call up civilians (outside of the normal conscription) was a sign of desperation and totally out of character for how the Germans understood war.

 

[Roches]

It's certainly true that the enemy the Home Guard would have faced was nothing like the enemy the Volkssturm faced, with massive firepower and loads of heavy (and light) equipment. As mentioned, the Home Guard would have fought Germans near the beachhead while the Navy worked on cutting the German supply lines. The Volkssturm could never have pushed the enemy to the sea in the west, just as they couldn't have fought their way east to Moscow and Stalingrad.

And because the Home Guard was a volunteer service, people only joined if they had good reason to think they might be useful. In addition to the WW1 veterans, most Home Guard members would have known how to use a rifle or shotgun or at least would have been willing to learn. Also, by the time the Volkssturm was founded, the bottom of the barrel had been scraped and old men and boys were more or less all that remained.

I agree that the Home Guard is in keeping with the concept, which exists throughout the English-speaking world, of relying on well-defended waters for defense, using standing armies as "projectiles to be fired by the Navy," and having the common people ready to defend the country (of their own volition) if the need should arise. (I've worded it differently, but I do agree.)

However, Nazi Germany did at least pretend that the Germans had a tradition of citizen-soldiery as well. It's seen in the lavish 1945 color film "Kolberg", a thinly veiled propaganda piece where the people arm themselves and save Germany from invaders. And it's seen in the expression Goebbels used to conclude his Total War (Sportpalast) speech, also a reference to armed militias of the past: Nun, Volk, steh' auf, und Sturm bricht los! Now, people, rise up, and storm break loose!

 

[Mike D]

by September 1940 they had been (mostly) equipped with the sort of kit they would have used in 1918, and the logistical situation meant that the Germans were only able to attack with something very similar.

That's one of the big myths that came out of wartime propaganda and myth - the terrifying German hordes of professional soldiers being faced by Dad's Army of old men and the youngsters who couldn't get into the Army.

In fact the Home Guard could well have had more military experience than most of the Germans, more experience with the weapons they were going into battle with and were probably more motivated.

(As a side note, there's a wonderful episode of Dad's Army where they believe the invasion is coming. Mainwaring, Jones, Fraser and Godfrey end up deciding to hold Godfrey's cottage to delay the Germans until the Army can arrive and push them back. As they're waiting Mainwaring turns to the others and says 'of course, you know this is the end for us don't you? But we're ready for that aren't we men?' Fraser simply replies 'of course'.

For all the joking about Dad's Army, both in the series and at the time, they were brave men ready to die to protect their homes and would have caused the Germans a number of problems had they got ashore in 1940).

 

[Johnrankins]

That's one of the big myths that came out of wartime propaganda and myth - the terrifying German hordes of professional soldiers being faced by Dad's Army of old men and the youngsters who couldn't get into the Army.

In fact the Home Guard could well have had more military experience than most of the Germans, more experience with the weapons they were going into battle with and were probably more motivated.

(As a side note, there's a wonderful episode of Dad's Army where they believe the invasion is coming. Mainwaring, Jones, Fraser and Godfrey end up deciding to hold Godfrey's cottage to delay the Germans until the Army can arrive and push them back. As they're waiting Mainwaring turns to the others and says 'of course, you know this is the end for us don't you? But we're ready for that aren't we men?' Fraser simply replies 'of course'.

For all the joking about Dad's Army, both in the series and at the time, they were brave men ready to die to protect their homes and would have caused the Germans a number of problems had they got ashore in 1940).

Agreed, they would have been facing mostly infantry, most of them no doubt seasick, while the Volkssturm lots and lots of tanks backed up by lots and lots of artillary.

 

[Major Major]

Story about the Volksturm:

The drill parade was delayed by an hour. When the commander did a roll call he discovered the unit was down to a third of its strength an hour ago.

Upon investigation, he further discovered that one third of the troops had gone to the post office to collect their old-age pensions, while one third had confirmation class.

 

[Oldbill]

Digressing a bit, but I've never understood why the Home Guard seemed to be ridiculed to the extent that it is. Over here ( the US) we had men from the French and Indian Wars fighting in the Revolution, men from the Revolution signing up in the Civil War, men from the Civil War fighting or attempting to fight in the SpanAmWar, and on and on. While in some threads there are those who disparage the possibility of Americans doing such things (this came up in the Germany invades the US in 1903 thread IIRC) there are plenty of examples of such behavior, enough in fact, that it seems to be a national characteristic, and it isn't discounted as much here as it seems to be in the UK. Anyone wish to take a stab at why?

 

[King Augeas]

Dad's Army

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

...
but the thing is, the people used on the volkssturm could have worked in the factories or in the collapsing infraestructure, ... and they were not working on the war effort by another means

Factory out put became irrelevant in this period. From February 1945 the Allied air attacks on the German railways were aided by some clear weather. The ability to move and significant amounts of material from the factories, or army depots to the battle front collapsed as the railway bridges fell. Production slowed or shut down as parts and raw material deliveries plumented. At best the defense gains a few weeks of factory production delivered to the battle zone in December-January. After that its all in the final days, or hour.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Digressing a bit, but I've never understood why the Home Guard seemed to be ridiculed to the extent that it is. Over here ( the US) we had men from the French and Indian Wars fighting in the Revolution, men from the Revolution signing up in the Civil War, men from the Civil War fighting or attempting to fight in the SpanAmWar, and on and on. While in some threads there are those who disparage the possibility of Americans doing such things (this came up in the Germany invades the US in 1903 thread IIRC) there are plenty of examples of such behavior, enough in fact, that it seems to be a national characteristic, and it isn't discounted as much here as it seems to be in the UK. Anyone wish to take a stab at why?

The US Army in 1943 still had some senior NCOS who had served in the Great War. Most of the GW veterans mobilized with the National Guard in 1940, were eventually discharged by latter 1942. Health being the #1 reason, essential manufactoring skills being another, as well as family problems.

 

[Saphroneth]

There's definitely a place for a citizen militia or corps of hurriedly raised conscripts, but that place depends what they're facing.
When the citizen militia is expected to face formed, regular troops, bereft of meaningful support, it's basically on a hiding to nothing almost no matter the period unless it has an overwhelming numerical superiority or a considerable tech one. (As a backstop to more experienced formed troops of their own, OTOH, they can provide a valuable delay element or in fortifications can provide a manoeuvre base).


In the case of the Volkssturm, it was a true citizen militia (those in it hadn't had any significant unit training, and were cohorts not considered fit for normal military use for reason of age), was mostly armed less well than the invaders (except for their anti-tank weapons like the Panzerfaust, which were quite impressive) and had no real support. That meant they had to take the brunt of the fighting against formed regular units lavishly equipped with artillery, and under those conditions they fell apart very quickly - being neither able to inflict casualties at a high rate nor take them steadily.



The Volkssturm would have been more effective, IMO, if they'd truly been instilled en masse with the idea that to die in the defence of the fatherland was a positive good. That would have led to deliberate suicide attacks, and stopping someone willing to kill themselves is a lot harder. (I'm thinking of the Japanese plans to respond to OLYMPIC).
Of course, in the process you'd have killed off huge chunks of the German population doing so, squandering the seed corn to do a little more damage to an enemy quite willing to kill anyone still resisting (the Soviets) or just smother the place in artillery anyway (the WAllies).

 

[eltf177]

Without tanks and artillery there was little the Volkssturm could do. They were of far more use in Berlin street-fighting than trying to stop Soviet Guard units which literally blasted them to pieces, then ran over them with tanks...

 

[History Learner]

What strikes me about the Volkssturm is that they are essentially the same concept as the British Home Guard, although the latter had a minimum age of 17. Both forces were poorly equipped; the Volkssturm at least had the Panzerfaust while the Home Guard was supposedly going to deal with tanks by mines and old soup plates. Yet the Home Guard is seen as a sign of national determination, not desperation, probably because it was voluntary and its members never went into combat.

Stalin wanted to capture Berlin on 1 May. If there hadn't been any Volkssturm, he may have gotten that.

I think that difference in view on terms of the Volkssturm and Home Guard is entirely due to the fact the former was on the losing side, while the Home Guard wasn't. As far as the Soviet capture of Berlin and it's timing, it's debatable. Elements of the SS, including the Charlemagne units, pretty much solely resisted into May 2nd just to spite the Russians and prevent them from getting that one last victory; I can imagine they'd do the same here.

 

[Nick P]

Digressing a bit, but I've never understood why the Home Guard seemed to be ridiculed to the extent that it is. Over here ( the US) we had men from the French and Indian Wars fighting in the Revolution, men from the Revolution signing up in the Civil War, men from the Civil War fighting or attempting to fight in the SpanAmWar, and on and on. While in some threads there are those who disparage the possibility of Americans doing such things (this came up in the Germany invades the US in 1903 thread IIRC) there are plenty of examples of such behavior, enough in fact, that it seems to be a national characteristic, and it isn't discounted as much here as it seems to be in the UK. Anyone wish to take a stab at why?

When Jimmy Perry was looking for a new TV story in 1967 he saw a parade in London and recalled the one he was at in 1944, when the Home Guard finally stood down and disbanded. When he went to the library to do some research there was nothing about the Home Guard. He could find stuff about the Volkssturm or the German catering corps but not the old guys and young lads who turned out on guard across Britain every day and night.

Much of Perry's HG experience had funny moments and the BBC wanted a comedy show. That's why it lasted 9 series and a TV movie, one touring stage show and a modern movie remake, AND is still being repeated today. It could have done with more serious moments such as Godfrey's cottage but without Dad's Army we would barely recall them.

I've actually taken a selfie with Captain Mainwaring's statue Somebody shouted 'You stupid boy'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dad's_Army