Did the United States Hide a Battleship in 1942?

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Well, this is... unusual.

Pray tell, where, exactly, did the USN and IJN engage in surface combat involving capital ships before the well known encounter Off Guadalcanal on 14-15 November 1942? I would be fascinated to learn where the
I can’t really because I do not read Japanese but he was very matter of fact that they knew it was there because they had engaged her at night more than once in the previous five months and got their butts whipped by radar targeted 16” rifles.
took place since NO OTHER record of these engagements exists in any history or account of the war.

Was the war basically over on 14 October of 1942? That was when the Japanese sent sent the Kongo and Haruna (both vessels being battleships) to blow the pogies out of Henderson Field for the first time? Was it over on 12-13 November when Kirishima and Hiei engaged the U.S. cruiser force (e.g. TF 67) off Guadalcanal, in an engagement that resulted in the eventual loss of Hiei due to the combined impact of naval gunfire and follow on bombing from aircraft during the day of the 13th? Or the night of 14-15 November?
 
Possible Encounter

The whole idea of deception is to get the other side to commit resources in the wrong place. The encounter may have been a practice or hypothetical encounter but I did not first get it from the article listed. I got it from the order when it was first declassified. That was before I took this seriously and I no longer have a copy of it or the other correspondence that was with it. Part of that original block of information said the reason North Carolina did not go to the Pacific in January of 1942 as planned before Pearl Harbor was because the Navy knew Germany would not chance Terpitz meeting both fast battleships based on the October 14, 1941 encounter. It also said the entire incident was kept secret because the US and Germany were not at war. There were a number of other correspondences after about April 1941 that were talking about hypothetical encounters so this may have been, or may have been real but treated as if it too were in the realm of hypotheticals. I don’t know where to find them and that is part of what is eating me up. I know what I saw in so many places and the stories I was told but at the time it was interest, not any desire to prove it or write a book. Part of my coming here was the hope that somebody out there may have stumbled across some of the same information or had a better idea where to look.

The best I can tell those declassified documents are the only account of Terpitz being in the Atlantic. They were very clear that Terpitz out ran them. There is no other account of Terpitz being that far west or even out of the Baltic in 1941.

The plan all along was to send North Carolina to the Pacific in January 1942 so after we lost most of the Pacific fleet the decision was made that it was more important to keep her in the Atlantic just in case Terpitz started raiding? That is what the history book reads. It sounds pretty ridiculous to me especially after all the things I have run across that indicate otherwise.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The whole idea of deception is to get the other side to commit resources in the wrong place. The encounter may have been a practice or hypothetical encounter but I did not first get it from the article listed. I got it from the order when it was first declassified. That was before I took this seriously and I no longer have a copy of it or the other correspondence that was with it. Part of that original block of information said the reason North Carolina did not go to the Pacific in January of 1942 as planned before Pearl Harbor was because the Navy knew Germany would not chance Terpitz meeting both fast battleships based on the October 14, 1941 encounter. It also said the entire incident was kept secret because the US and Germany were not at war. There were a number of other correspondences after about April 1941 that were talking about hypothetical encounters so this may have been, or may have been real but treated as if it too were in the realm of hypotheticals. I don’t know where to find them and that is part of what is eating me up. I know what I saw in so many places and the stories I was told but at the time it was interest, not any desire to prove it or write a book. Part of my coming here was the hope that somebody out there may have stumbled across some of the same information or had a better idea where to look.

The best I can tell those declassified documents are the only account of Terpitz being in the Atlantic. They were very clear that Terpitz out ran them. There is no other account of Terpitz being that far west or even out of the Baltic in 1941.

The plan all along was to send North Carolina to the Pacific in January 1942 so after we lost most of the Pacific fleet the decision was made that it was more important to keep her in the Atlantic just in case Terpitz started raiding? That is what the history book reads. It sounds pretty ridiculous to me especially after all the things I have run across that indicate otherwise.

Time to put the cards on the table. You may be trolling here, which I find to be a real possibility, disconnected from OTL in a literal sense, or you can lay out your facts.

There is one other possibility, that you are Role Playing. If so, you need to make that clear, now.

CalBear in Mod Mode.
 
Time to put the cards on the table. You may be trolling here, which I find to be a real possibility, disconnected from OTL in a literal sense, or you can lay out your facts.

There is one other possibility, that you are Role Playing. If so, you need to make that clear, now.

CalBear in Mod Mode.

I am not roll laying. I am serious.
 
Well, this is... unusual.

Pray tell, where, exactly, did the USN and IJN engage in surface combat involving capital ships before the well known encounter Off Guadalcanal on 14-15 November 1942? I would be fascinated to learn where the took place since NO OTHER[/FONT][/SIZE] record of these engagements exists in any history or account of the war.

Was the war basically over on 14 October of 1942? That was when the Japanese sent sent the Kongo and Haruna (both vessels being battleships) to blow the pogies out of Henderson Field for the first time? Was it over on 12-13 November when Kirishima and Hiei engaged the U.S. cruiser force (e.g. TF 67) off Guadalcanal, in an engagement that resulted in the eventual loss of Hiei due to the combined impact of naval gunfire and follow on bombing from aircraft during the day of the 13th? Or the night of 14-15 November?

That was of course over four months after Midway.
 
Time to put the cards on the table. You may be trolling here, which I find to be a real possibility, disconnected from OTL in a literal sense, or you can lay out your facts.

There is one other possibility, that you are Role Playing. If so, you need to make that clear, now.

CalBear in Mod Mode.

I am not trolling. I was told stories of North Carolina in the Pacific from January 1941 until Midway by men that served on her. I did not take any of them seriously enough at the time and did not record them. I have seen things like the five extra battle flags at the memorial and even my generally uninterested wife remembers that. Everything official indicates it did not happen and every time I go anywhere official thinking by now the truth may have been released I find less of what I found before. There are so many little things like this book, http://www.amazon.com/Battleship-War-Epic-Story-Washington/dp/015110400X that gives accounts of the Washington pretending to be North Carolina during that time, the flags, the picture of the camouflage scheme. No I do not have that picture but I have seen it and I know it exists somewhere. I was hoping somebody here might have seen it too, or seen other things like the things I have seen, or even had an old sailor tell them stories like the ones I was told.

I believe it did go to the Pacific but I realize the official records are overwhelmingly against that. I have had a little more time to kill in the last month since I have been out of work so I have tried to start piecing together all the things I ran across but never thought to save. I am really frustrated because so much of what I stumbled across I cannot find. What really gets me is if I had saved a fraction of it you would not be asking if I am trolling or role playing. You would likely be asking, which was the ruse, Pacific or Atlantic?

I genuinely would like any supporting evidence anybody has. At the very lease it is an entertaining story, like the one the old man told that got me interested. Maybe if none of you know of anything now at some time in the future you will stumble across something that makes you wonder. That is how I got hooked, a good story, little thing after little thing, and now no way I can get anybody to take any of it seriously unless others have stumbled on the same things I have. Thing is, if you weren't thinking about it you could have and never connected the dots.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
That was of course over four months after Midway.


It was also LONG before
the war was basically over
which was when you claimed the IJN first engaged with her battleships

This statement, BTW is also in direct contradiction to your statement that
new it was there because they had engaged her at night more than once in the previous five months and got their butts whipped by radar targeted 16” rifles [/quote]

If the Japanese were not engaging the North Carolina with capital ships, what were they using? It was clearly not cruisers, the record of EVERY IJN cruiser is well known (of course, the same goes for her battleships, carriers and destroyers) You can find detailed information here:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Junyokan.htm

Still waiting on the "where & when" the IJN got their butts whipped in heavy ship surface actionseveral times in five months before Midway.
 
It was also LONG before which was when you claimed the IJN first engaged with her battleships

This statement, BTW is also in direct contradiction to your statement that
new it was there because they had engaged her at night more than once in the previous five months and got their butts whipped by radar targeted 16” rifles [/quote]

If the Japanese were not engaging the North Carolina with capital ships, what were they using? It was clearly not cruisers, the record of EVERY IJN cruiser is well known (of course, the same goes for her battleships, carriers and destroyers) You can find detailed information here:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Junyokan.htm

Still waiting on the "where & when" the IJN got their butts whipped in heavy ship surface actionseveral times in five months before Midway.

I assume you are talking about the battle where the Washington sank the Kirishima? That was five month after Midway, therefore it could not have been an engagement before Midway. I also said I was told this by an historian studying the Japanese side written in Japanese and that it is not and would not be documented in US records if it was a secret that a battleship raider was in the pacific. Part of my re-visiting this is I have not read any translated accounts from the other side either. I am asking if maybe any of you have.

The October 14, 1941 date I gave was about an order for Washington, North Carolina, and Yorktown to engage Terpitz, yes two months before the US entered the war. I have several post about that as well in this thread.

Sorry for the confusion.
 

Flubber

Banned
The October 14, 1941 date I gave was about an order for Washington, North Carolina, and Yorktown to engage Terpitz, yes two months before the US entered the war.


No. You've conflated Hewitt's standing orders to all vessels in the Neutrality Patrol regarding Germany capital ships into some super-secret encounter between the USN and KM heavy units in 1941. Hewitt issued general tactical directives for any potential encounters between his forces and KM capital units. Convoys were told when to evade and when to scatter, convoy escorts were told when and when not to engage the enemy, carriers were told to evade and conduct air attacks, and heavy units were told to attack immediately while closing to point blank range.

These standing orders were not what you unaccountably believe them to be: Direct orders to USN assets to find, fix, and fight KM heavy units. These standing orders were only tactical directives to be employed IF USN units found themselves engaging KM warships while escorting convoys in the Western Hemisphere defense zone.

As for your other claims, Yorktown served in the Neutrality Patrol with New Mexico, not North Carolina and Washington. Neither of those battleships were available for active duty or served in the Neutrality Patrol during the period in question because of, as amply explained in Freidman's US Battleships, severe problems with their screw and shaft designs.

Instead, North Carolina was operating out of the Brooklyn Navy Yard testing various screw designs meant to solve the class' shaft vibration problems. The same problems kept Washington from passing her builders trials until February of '42 despite being commissioned in May of '41.

In the words of Sagan and Truzzi, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Sea stories told by old men, battle flag counts, photos you "remember" seeing but can no longer find, records which haven't been translated into English, and other such "proof" simply fail to make muster, especially when one considers that the passage of seven decades means the "secret" needn't remain secret anymore.

Hell, even Slapton Sands and Engima were revealed within a generation of the war ending and yet you want us to believe that events like a US carrier and battleships tangling with Tirpitz, North Carolina acting a lone raider in the Pacific after Pearl, and a nighttime gun line duel during Midway are still somehow cloaked in secrecy.

As CalBear suggested, you're either trolling, role playing, or divorced from reality.
 

The Vulture

Banned
TIRPITZ. It's the Tirpitz. Not the Terpitz. You're really hurting your credibility when you apparently haven't seen the name at the core of your argument in writing.
 
TIRPITZ. It's the Tirpitz. Not the Terpitz. You're really hurting your credibility when you apparently haven't seen the name at the core of your argument in writing.


It doesn't matter what you tell him, he's not going to take any notice unless you agree with his theories.
 
I am an engineer that can do simultaneous equations for rocket propulsion


Some people just don't understand that they shouldn't drink the fuel of the rockets they simultaneously equated for:D

If you're doing this for laughs, I'll laugh along. But If you're doing it for real I'll speed away before I'm hit by radar directed 16 lines posts...
 

nbcman

Donor
TIRPITZ. It's the Tirpitz. Not the Terpitz. You're really hurting your credibility when you apparently haven't seen the name at the core of your argument in writing.

It doesn't matter what you tell him, he's not going to take any notice unless you agree with his theories.

I shudder to see what other people the engineering schools turn out when a candidate who can do rocket propulsion simultaneous equations cannot spell the location they live at:
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Houstin, TX
Posts: 13
 
Odd. Why did they think that Tirpitz would be operating anywhere near Iceland?

Bismarck entered the Atlantic via the Denmark Strait between Iceland and Greenland.

And why did they think that there'd be a Zeppelin nearby??? :confused:

King is almost certainly referring to Graf Zeppelin, the German aircraft carrier. Which was never completed, much less operational, but in 1941 that wasn't known to the U.S.

If Tirpitz had been sent on a long range raiding mission, and Graf Zeppelin was available, she could have been sent along.
 
Battle Count, I can remember

The picture I remember but cannot find with the five extra battle flags, I cannot find online. A friend lives in Wilmington, claims she saw it recently, and is going to go photograph it so I can post it here. Another friend claims to have it already. That is one I am 100% sure I can get so if you are making the case that I do not know what I am talking about due to that, please, go away or answer my question, could this be real, or a deception not written about, and HAS ANYBODY ELSE SEEN ANYTHING? That is my big question. The pictures of the extra battle flags is the one she says is still posted and the paint scheme exist at the Memorial as well so I am sure if I ever go there and am allowed to go through the archives I will find it. Those are the least of my worries, just sad nobody here has seen them so I am getting savaged for talking about them. Those alone are not proof, just things that spark interest.

As for stories of old men, that would be about all that is left. I was told three by men that did not know each other and I confirmed they were on the ship. One was on his death bed, another was on the phone, said he had kept the secret his entire life, the third was in person. They did not tell the same story but they each told stories that fit. Had they told exactly the same story it would have been an even stronger motivator. They are good stories whether they were real or inspired by a ruse and they do not contradict each other in any way. I started this search by looking to find any old men still alive that will tell similar stories and will put their signature on the stories. Perhaps even a lead to prove it one way or the other will come out.

I do agree that these orders were standing but the one I had was specific. I am also not saying it was not a hypothetical or war game, just that it supports the idea that because of the Germans there was strong motivation to make them think it was in the Atlantic whether it was or not. Also a speculation, is it not likely the Japanese would have gone after it much like the British did after the Bismarck? What my friend studying the Japanese says is they did, but it was a submarine net. I now seriously doubt I will ever see that order again, so put it on the category of a general order. It still supports the position.

I cannot translate Japanese so I am supposed to ignore somebody that is doing exactly that because he has not published yet? I take him very seriously. I asked if anybody else had heard of the same thing. When he publishes I will use it as a resource.
 
Top