Did the United States Hide a Battleship in 1942?

This could be fun as an alternate history, but there is a possibility it may actually be the real history:
I believe the United States may have hidden a Battleship in plane eyesight from early in 1942 until after the battle of Midway. My suspicion began in the late 1980s and I regret that I have not saved every bit of information I found, but I may try to re-create it for a book I now want badly to write and I so wish I had taken written statements from so many old men that are no longer with us.
My ex-wife and I had just visited the memorial in Wilmington, NC. I am from North Carolina and had many times before but this time we saw several interesting things. First was a picture, in the main hall where guests board the ship, that showed BB-55 returning to the United States carrying five extra battle flags. The caption was something like, we do not know why the ship is flying five extra battle flags because typically one is awarded for every month she is away at war in foreign waters. There must have been some special significance that was not recorded at the time. Near the end of the tour I was fascinated by a photo of the ship from “early in 1941” where there was a dark stripe painted on the guns, across the ends of the guns, around the turrets, and even along the superstructure and deck. The caption read that it was an unauthorized camouflage scheme apparently painted by the crew for unknown reasons, but some sailors from the time said it was to make the ship look smaller like a cruiser.
When we got back to Atlanta we went to see my father in law who was dying of emphysema in the VA hospital. I was wearing a tee shirt I bought in the gift shop. As soon as he saw it he said, I was on that ship in the spring of 1942.” I said, “You were in the Army in the Pacific and that ship did not go there until the summer of 1942.” (He was in the Philippines when the war started and stayed in until after it was over in 1945.) He responded that he was an artillery gunnery officer and radar operator and they were going to get new radar to target their artillery and the only place there was any of the equipment to train on was that ship so he was sent there for a while to learn how to use it. Then he blew my mind, he told me they had painted the ship with a dark stripe all the way around to make it look like a cruiser because they did not want the Japanese to know they had a battleship. He described the photo I had seen perfectly. He went on to tell a wonderful story that may be no more than a good story but I will relate it because it is what has sparked my thirty year interest in unraveling what I now to believe to have happened. He said one morning, in the wee hours, they were called to general quarters because two Japanese cruisers had been spotted on radar about twenty miles out. He said all morning they would turn into the Japanese ships and crank the ship up to about 28 knots and run hard at them, then turn like they were dodging submarines and drop the speed to 21 knots. They were doing this because they looked like a cruiser and they knew the Japanese knew we did not have a battleship that fast. He said by late morning the gunnery officers were begging the captain to let them fire but he refused. Finally by early afternoon the gunnery officer reported that on the next pass they would be in range of the 8” Japanese guns. The captain gave the order to fire and twenty minutes later they were running for the horizon at flank speed while the two Japanese ships sank.
A couple of years later I went back to the memorial and very noticeably she was and to my knowledge is not carrying two combat markings for sinking the Japanese cruisers. I thought to myself, well, if they were hiding her there would not be but as soon as I got on board I went to the crew roster to find his name. It was not there so I laughed at myself and said, “Great story old man, you got me.” Near the end of the tour each of the different year alumni associations had a room with pictures, bulletin boards, and memorabilia. At the very top of the 1942 bulletin board was his name, the Army guy that was assigned to the ship that had been lost to the Association! I was completely overwhelmed. Apparently he was not on the Navy crew roster because he was Army. I went back through looking for more information and the things I had seen before but the displays had changed so that was all I found that trip.
I kept my eyes and ears open for more information, pictures, anything, but I was not after the Holy Grail yet. Then I was given a book written by the gunnery officer of the USS Washington, BB-56. It was a log he had kept during the entire life of the Washington starting before she was commissioned. My mind was blown again, and I paraphrase from memory, she would sail out of her port in Philadelphia and make a speed run to the north Atlantic and have gunnery practice with the British. As soon as she was out of site of the British she would paint out the 56, replace it with a 55, paint out Washington, and replace it with North Carolina, then make a speed run to the Caribbean and have gunnery practice with the Dutch, then a speed run to New York, North Carolina’s port, for a day or so, then back out, repaint, and back into Philadelphia. They did this all through the winter and Spring of 1942! Now my interest was piqued! I got to looking and there were other documented cases of the US Navy during that time using the same deception to make it look like we had more ships in more places than we did.
Much later I found a series of declassified documents that indicated the Atlantic was charged with engaging the Terpitz if she ever came west of Nova Scotia. The admiral asked with what and was told Washington and North Carolina no matter what shape they were in and even if civilian construction crews were on board. The last in the series, dated October 14, 1941. In it the order was given for Washington, North Carolina, and Yorktown to engage Terpitz with long range gun fire and aircraft and impose the battleships between the Terpitz and “convoy.” On further study I found the Terpitz did indeed run from North Carolina and Washington. Another piece of the puzzle, not because of Japan but because of Germany there needed to be an illusion of two battleships in the Atlantic. Japan’s battleships never engaged until the war was basically over, but Germany used hers and her battle cruisers to great advantage in the Atlantic.
I said a book because I can go on and on and on, but for now I am going to give just a few highlights from Midway. North Carolina sailed into Pearl Harbor either on the 10th or 11th of June, 1942, reports differ. I searched medical logs of the return and found that the Navy surgeons met the North Carolina returning from Midway, before she made it into the harbor, to remove some of the worst wounded in the battle of Midway! I met a naval historian that has been studying the Japanese accounts. I can’t really because I do not read Japanese but he was very matter of fact that they knew it was there because they had engaged her at night more than once in the previous five months and got their butts whipped by radar targeted 16” rifles. He claims the final order to withdraw form Midway was disputed and argued with by junior officers and finally the explanation was given, we are not going to engage the American battleship at night. i.e. The night engagement between our carriers and their battleships and cruisers they would seem to have wanted was ruled out because the night time game changer was radar targeted 16” rifles.
 
:confused::confused::confused:

One has the feeling this would have emerged long before if it were as you suspect. But, it is worth pursuing if for no other reason than to see how the mistaken identity or the misplaced dates & locations emerged. This might possibly reflect a deception operation of some sort.
 
:confused::confused::confused:

One has the feeling this would have emerged long before if it were as you suspect. But, it is worth pursuing if for no other reason than to see how the mistaken identity or the misplaced dates & locations emerged. This might possibly reflect a deception operation of some sort.

That's possible, it could be fake radio traffic or a bogus movement order. Who knows.
 
Update on BB-55

I am an engineer that can do simultaneous equations for rocket propulsion, so when you can do those without error, please carry on correcting my spelling. If the meaning confuses you, please ask. If I ever do write the book, or publish one of my fictions, I will gladly pay an editor and probably want to wring his/her neck for changing the meaning when all I needed was a better spell checker than Word.
I agree that this should have come to light by now. There were all kinds of deceptions in that war, more than most because it was so all encompassing and lasted for so many years and so many smart people got to play the game. As I began to find the pieces, I came to the conclusion that the US wanted Japan to think she was in the Pacific and Germany to think she was in the Atlantic. I have no doubt there was an intentional deception even though it is not documented. The question is which was the deception and which the reality? The Doolittle raid, were those really 8” guns at that angle and range and with total destruction on impact? As my wife says, would even the sailors sailing with her have been told? No, I do not think they would have. Would they believe it was the St. Paul or some other cruiser? Probably not but sailors tell tall tales so who would believe especially if the truth is made to sound to ridiculous to believe? I keep asking the question, “Since her crew was so large why has the truth not come out or at least an account of how they fooled the Japanese and the Germans? (Except for the Washington book.) Why was I told that story and a couple of others by men that were on her?” (AND DAMN ME, why didn’t I record them, transcribe it, and get them to sign it while they were alive?) I have had long spells of no information then startling film, transcripts, declassified post, and even phone calls that have blown me away. I believe she probably was at Midway, and probably did go to the Pacific in January of 1942. If I am wrong it is an exciting alternate history with a lot of supporting evidence in the real world.
Part of what sparked writing this is I went looking to the BB-55 association to find men on her during that time and I was told at last count, four years ago, only six were still alive and they would not tell me how to find even the four that were at the launch of SSN-777. My dad has connected me with a couple of guys that served in WWII, but so far nobody from January 1942 to June 10th 1942. It is also interesting that there are sailor accounts before December 7th and after June 16th but none I can find between those two dates. That is not proof, just heightens the suspensions.
Sadly, some of the easiest information to find on the internet, I cannot find anymore. I need those to document the book if I ever get to write it. If any of you stumble across anything, please copy it, screen shot it, and pass it on. It may be my ineptitude but I am frustrated that some of the things I found and did not save, I cannot find now. One other thing I have been trying to find out, are there any records or newspaper stories of the passage of the North Carolina through the Panama Canal? I saw some on the memorial when I was a child in the 60s, but the internet is void. The Canal authority says they only recorded convoy numbers during the war, no specific ships to contact the Navy. The Navy says to contact the Canal Authority. Sigh…
 
You might look for the Tabular Record of Movement for the USS North Carolina. TROMs listed every time a ship moved...my understanding is that even a move between piers was entered into the record. It should be available through the Navy's archives. You might also inquire via the United States Naval Institute. Another avenue would be to post on one or more battleship fan boards on Ye Internet. I would post a couple of links to personal favorites, but I'm not sure whether that might violate the AHC rules.

As for BB-55 being part of the Midway force, I find that to be more than a bit of a stretch, to be honest. I can't help but think that somebody on one or more of the US ships would've noticed a 'cruiser' that was a hundred feet too long and several knots too slow, regardless of how she was painted. She also had far too many secondary battery and AA guns to pass muster. Stranger things have happened, I suppose.
 
I am an engineer that can do simultaneous equations for rocket propulsion, so when you can do those without error, please carry on correcting my spelling.

No-one has corrected your spelling in this thread so far, so in the interests of keeping a civil discussion perhaps you'd consider leaving your rebuttal until after you've been insulted?
 

Tohno

Banned
No-one has corrected your spelling in this thread so far, so in the interests of keeping a civil discussion perhaps you'd consider leaving your rebuttal until after you've been insulted?

he meant that not in an insulting or "sarcastic" term, but genuinely i think
 

Delta Force

Banned
The Baltimore and North Carolina class ships look very similar to each other and could easily pretend to be each other. I managed to find these two pictures of USS St. Paul (CA-73) and USS North Carolina (BB-55) taken from similar angles. The major difference is the lower number of 5 inch guns on the cruiser and the upper forward bridge superstructure. The cruiser also has a flush bridge, while the second level of the battleship bridge is slightly smaller, giving it a stepped look. The turrets also have slightly different angling. I think the differing number of secondaries is likely to be the largest issue for disguise, at least from the side (a North Carolina has a much larger beam than a Baltimore, but the length differs by only 60 feet).
 
The Baltimore and North Carolina class ships look very similar to each other and could easily pretend to be each other. I managed to find these two pictures of USS St. Paul (CA-73) and USS North Carolina (BB-55) taken from similar angles. The major difference is the lower number of 5 inch guns on the cruiser and the upper forward bridge superstructure. The cruiser also has a flush bridge, while the second level of the battleship bridge is slightly smaller, giving it a stepped look. The turrets also have slightly different angling. I think the differing number of secondaries is likely to be the largest issue for disguise, at least from the side (a North Carolina has a much larger beam than a Baltimore, but the length differs by only 60 feet).

Thank you for the picture links. That is one of the things I have found. They are similar, maybe at a distance could be confused. Even the funnels are similar, just farther apart. I have seen pictures of the Doolittle raid ships at the Museum of the War in the Pacific in Fredericksburg, Texas, where I honestly thought the ship was the North Carolina. I am not saying I could not have ben mistakes since by that time I was beginning to look for proof. Most sailors would not have had binoculars would they? How far would the battleship operate from the other ships, especially if there was an attempt to hide it?

The other frustrating thing is I have seen pictures in old, long lost, books and at some of the museums and memorials that to the best of my knowledge are not digitized or available on the internet. I can’t help but believe that somewhere, possibly in stuff just being declassified, there exist pictures that would prove the stories.

The other thing I was told by sailors that make the claim is that they operated as a raider, like the German battleships/battle cruisers until Midway, sailing alone and getting fuel and supplies at a “plywood dock off some small atoll” or at sea. They did not approach Pear Harbor or any other major instillation until after Midway. They said everybody was elated because with the waxing of the Japanese carriers they could go to Pearl Harbor and join the rest of the fleet. (They were only there for five days.) What I was told is Midway was the first time they did any fleet maneuvers. I have been totally unable to confirm this but I was told by a sailor that is no longer with us, they joined Yorktown just before sunrise on June 4th and they were responsible for taking down many of the planes that attacked that afternoon. He said the first wave flew right over them but the second wave flew around the horizon to come at the carrier without having to make a direct pass over the battleship. He also said when we lost Yorktown they speed to join Enterprise and were told they were about 35 miles away at sunset. That was exactly in keeping with what the previously mentioned historian studying the Japanese accounts said. He said they knew where the carriers were and thought they could intercept after dark, but they also knew where the battleship was and that it too would be in range. He also said they had a taskforce of submarines to hunt the raider since March of 1941.

As for the spelling comments, sorry guys. I was posting on another site at the same time were a self-important moron went after my spelling due to lack of substance and a good old fashioned Texas ass whooping. My bad.
 
Something has been nagging at me about this thread, so I just checked it out. As far as I am aware, the Tirpitz never had any encounter, or even threatened encounter, with any US naval forces. She wasn't ready for sea operations until January 1942, and even then she didn't go any further then the seas around Norway.
 
Something has been nagging at me about this thread, so I just checked it out. As far as I am aware, the Tirpitz never had any encounter, or even threatened encounter, with any US naval forces. She wasn't ready for sea operations until January 1942, and even then she didn't go any further then the seas around Norway.

Agreed. That is one of the declassified listings I lost over the years. I am looking for it and will link it when I find it. The date I do remember because it was my anniversary, October 14.
 
Agreed. That is one of the declassified listings I lost over the years. I am looking for it and will link it when I find it. The date I do remember because it was my anniversary, October 14.

This is not what I am looking for but it is interesting that Terpitz was active in September of 1941 as a squadron leader. Officially Washington and North Carolina were still in training as well and had civilian construction teams still on board.

After sea trials, Tirpitz was stationed in Kiel and performed intensive training in the Baltic. While the ship was in Kiel, Germany invaded the Soviet Union. A temporary Baltic Fleet was created to prevent the possible break-out of the Soviet fleet based in Leningrad. Tirpitz was briefly made the flagship of the squadron, which consisted of the heavy cruiser Admiral Scheer, the light cruisers Köln, Nürnberg, Leipzig, and Emden, several destroyers, and two flotillas of minesweepers.[7] The Baltic Fleet, under the command of Admiral Otto Ciliax,[6] patrolled off the Aaland Islands from 23 to 26 September 1941, after which the unit disbanded and Tirpitz resumed training.[12] During the training period, Tirpitz tested her primary and secondary guns on the old pre-dreadnought battleship Hessen,[13] which had been converted into a radio-controlled target ship.[14] The British Royal Air Force (RAF) continued to launch unsuccessful bombing raids on Tirpitz while she was stationed in Kiel.[15]
 
Thread that lead to the October 14th Order

On September 1, in OPERATION PLAN 7-41, Admiral King set down in upper case his interpretation of the President’s letter to Admiral Stark. Stamped SECRET, King’s analysis went to ten Navy task forces and four patrols - Northern, Gulf, Caribbean and Panama.
“MY INTERPRETATION OF THREAT TO UNITED STATES OR ICELAND FLAG SHIPPING WHETHER ESCORTED OR NOT, IS THAT THREAT EXISTS WHEN:
1) POTENTIALLY HOSTILE VESSELS ARE ACTUALLY WITHIN SIGHT OR SOUND CONTACT OF SUCH SHIPPING OR ITS ESCORT.
2) POTENTIALLY HOSTILE SURFACE RAIDERS APPROACH WITHIN 100 MILES OF SUCH SHIPPING, ALONG THE SEA LANES BETWEEN NORTH AMERICA AND ICELAND.
3) POTENTIALLY HOSTILE SURFACE RAIDERS OR SUBMARINES EITHER APPROACH WITHIN 100 MILES OF SUCH SHIPPING TRAVERSING ROUTES DEFINED IN PARAGRAPH 3 (W) (5) BELOW, OR ENTER THE PROCLAIMED NEUTRALITY ZONE.
4) ANY POTENTIALLY HOSTILE FORCES APPROACH TO WITHIN FIFTY MILES OF ICELAND."
 
On September 1, in OPERATION PLAN 7-41, Admiral King set down in upper case his interpretation of the President’s letter to Admiral Stark. Stamped SECRET, King’s analysis went to ten Navy task forces and four patrols - Northern, Gulf, Caribbean and Panama.
“MY INTERPRETATION OF THREAT TO UNITED STATES OR ICELAND FLAG SHIPPING WHETHER ESCORTED OR NOT, IS THAT THREAT EXISTS WHEN:
1) POTENTIALLY HOSTILE VESSELS ARE ACTUALLY WITHIN SIGHT OR SOUND CONTACT OF SUCH SHIPPING OR ITS ESCORT.
2) POTENTIALLY HOSTILE SURFACE RAIDERS APPROACH WITHIN 100 MILES OF SUCH SHIPPING, ALONG THE SEA LANES BETWEEN NORTH AMERICA AND ICELAND.
3) POTENTIALLY HOSTILE SURFACE RAIDERS OR SUBMARINES EITHER APPROACH WITHIN 100 MILES OF SUCH SHIPPING TRAVERSING ROUTES DEFINED IN PARAGRAPH 3 (W) (5) BELOW, OR ENTER THE PROCLAIMED NEUTRALITY ZONE.
4) ANY POTENTIALLY HOSTILE FORCES APPROACH TO WITHIN FIFTY MILES OF ICELAND."

I am close! This is the order to Yorktown and she was operating with Washington and North Carolina, neither of which was officially in service but both had been ordered to support Yorktown.
The soon to be legendary Yorktown also had a mission. Carrier: Keep clear of Tirpitz. Aircraft attack with torpedoes and bombs to effect speed reduction and to assist in destruction. Should Zeppelin be in company, aircraft attack both carrier and battleship, selecting as the primary objective the one which presents the greater threat to convoy.”

Got it, but not the full version. The address is missing, this was sent to Washington and North Carolina in conjunction with the previous order to Yorktown. I once had the original unedited order:
Low-visibility contacts merited Admiral Hewitt's special regard. “…attack immediately with all weapons, closing to point blank ranges, while Convoy and Carrier get clear. This would be a “Captain’s battle,” where the task of each Captain is to get maximum numbers of shells and torpedoes into the enemy as quickly as possible.”
 
Odd. Why did they think that Tirpitz would be operating anywhere near Iceland? And why did they think that there'd be a Zeppelin nearby??? :confused:
 
Odd. Why did they think that Tirpitz would be operating anywhere near Iceland? And why did they think that there'd be a Zeppelin nearby??? :confused:

Poor intelligence concerning the actual capabilities or readiness of those ships. Plus the desire not to be suprised. Neither were they possesing inside knowledge of either German doctrine or intent concerning these ships. We know far too much about these ships, the USN leaders of 1941 knew far too little.
 

Delta Force

Banned
I found a USN gunnery guide, and the Baltimore and North Carolina class ships also look quite similar when drawn in silhouette. The website I found it on says the image is from the USN manual FM 30-50: Recognition Pictorial Manual of Naval Vessels. The North Carolinas were apparently the only twin funnel battleships in the USN during World War II and visually look more like a heavy cruiser than a battleship. The Baltimores were much larger than the cruisers that preceded them and closer in length to a battleship. Lastly, the North Carolinas were the first battleships of the USN able to go faster than 21 knots, making them the only ships to stand a chance against Bismarck class battleships and the only battleship able to chase down an IJN Kongo and keep pace with the rest of the IJN battleline.
 
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