Did the Teutonic Knights fight in the "Battle of the Ice"?

Alkahest

Banned
I'm doing some historical research for some writing I'm doing, and I have a hard time telling the bullshit from the facts. This forum seems like a good place to get answers, so here's my question:

Who fought on the crusaders' side in the "Battle of the Ice", or the Battle of Lake Peipus, against the forces of Alexander Nevsky?

In some sources it seems like a mixed Teutonic/Livonian Order deal (yeah, I know, the "Sword Brethren" had by this point been incorporated into the Teutonic Knights, but they seem to have operated rather autonomously), while other sources seem to imply that there were few, if any, Teutonic Knights present, while other sources downplay the knights completely and portray it as a hodgepodge of Western land-grabbers led by the Prince-Bishop of Dorpat with only a few token knights present.

So, according to the best data modern historians have available to them, what was the case?

Edit: To be more specific about the reasons for my question, I'm looking for some spectacular battle where a Teutonic knight (voted "best dressers of the Middle Ages") can get killed in a cinematic fashion. Vague knowledge of a cool battle where armored hardasses fell through the ice popped up in my head and I wrote down "Battle of the Ice" in my notes, but when I did some more research it seemed like a lot of the legends around that battle might just be myths cooked up by Russian patriots.
 
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Essentially Livionian Order, but as you said they operated relativly autonomously. Still, it was hard to differenciate them from Teutonics that fought with them by their equipment, tactics, origin.

From numbers I have 400 Livionians and 20 Teutonics died. It could give a rough ratio of the army.

You had also some Danes, with estonian footmen.

I did some more research it seemed like a lot of the legends around that battle might just be myths cooked up by Russian patriots.
Well, it's less that than the fact it was shown as a decisive defeat of Germans. It wasn't really a blown : they managed to keep western part of Peïpous even if Pskov had to be left (but Livionians took the city before two or three times, without real intent to keep it).

So the account of the battle could work, not its over-blown outcome in russian historiography.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Hmm ... I guess the knights of the Livonian Order looked pretty much the same as the Teutonic Knights ... but the Teutonic dudes had that sweet-ass black cross ... and didn't their head honchos wear those stupid yet inexplicably cool wing-horns on their pot helms?

I'm not saying I'm shallow, but I'm shallow.
 
Hbut the Teutonic dudes had that sweet-ass black cross ...
Probably worn as crusaders did : on the right shoulder (as bearing a real cross) and in the misdt of battle, covered with blood, snow and over relativly unsufferable details, less stylish but more standard equipment helped (for the Teutonic, I think it was grey-ish clothes)

and didn't their head honchos wear those stupid yet inexplicably cool wing-horns on
Bikers gangs, Teutonic Knights, same difference.

More seriously, this kind of helm doesn't appear before some time, when armors were really concieved as art pieces, around the XIV century (Codex Manesse being from the early part of this century), and only for the really lucky guys,and while it seems it was encouraged, helmets like this may have been as much used critically because it was more or less standardized.

Eventually, knights had several piece of equipment : during battle, armor is for some esoteric reason quite susceptible to be damaged and it was always good to have some material on hand ready to be used even if not fanciful.
Furthermore, such horned, heavy helmets were hugely impractical : doesn't mean they weren't used, but everyone wasn't a show-off at the coast of having a head and shoulder with double the weight to support.

The average non-noble Teutonic servant was clothed with grey and some standard helmet is he had some ressources.

Actually, more and more yo go in time, more chances that the individual armors you see in contemporary books are either prestigious devices (impractical, but used) or tournament armors (made as much sense using them on battlefield than paintball equipment in the misds of a civil war).
 

Alkahest

Banned
Are you telling me that the 1938 Russian propaganda film Alexander Nevsky is not historically accurate?

Stop ruining history for me.
 
Edit: To be more specific about the reasons for my question, I'm looking for some spectacular battle where a Teutonic knight (voted "best dressers of the Middle Ages") can get killed in a cinematic fashion. Vague knowledge of a cool battle where armored hardasses fell through the ice popped up in my head and I wrote down "Battle of the Ice" in my notes, but when I did some more research it seemed like a lot of the legends around that battle might just be myths cooked up by Russian patriots.

This is what popped up in your head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uez8dJ-MGw

A variant of this was used in Billion Dollar Brain, the spy film.
 
Are you telling me that the 1938 Russian propaganda film Alexander Nevsky is not historically accurate?
No, I'm saying that the movie is awesomly not historically accurate.

Stop ruining history for me.
*cough*

Plate armors shouldn't appear in arthurian movies neither as heraldy, your average medieval man was actually cleaner than your average grand-siècle noble, Richard lionheart was the royal equivaolent of a quaterback, and depsite what more of movies depicts important historical characters didn't have always a black pal.
 

Alkahest

Banned
vader.jpg
 

Alkahest

Banned
In all seriousness, I'm starting to wonder if there aren't "better" battles in the history of the Teutonic Knights to focus on, in terms of gory spectacle-factor as well as cool armor-factor. (Look, I'm just going to assume *my* guy dressed like a total fop.) Perhaps something during the Great Prussian Uprising, or the Battle of Durbe which led to it? I'm flexible with the time-frame involved, as long as someone with a pot helmet gets stabbed.

I really like pot helmets.
 
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Battle of Tannenberg is probably what you search.
Big numbers involved (from maybe 20 000 men, only 1 427 came back to be payed in Marienburg, rest being killed, prisoner or still fleeing) and Teutonic Knights and their allies had nobles more tunned than a pimpomobile.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Hm, I think I would prefer something earlier, since I like the whole "assholes killing pagans for being pagans"-aspect. (Also known as "crusade".) So I think I'll limit myself to early 14th century at the latest.

But thanks a lot for your input! I don't know a lot about this period of history, so every little bit of knowledge is helpful!
 
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