Did the Soviet Union plan to annex Finland during the Winter War?

Very quick question because I cannot find a definite answer to this, when Stalin first invaded Finland, did he had in mind to annex the entire state, to sort of restore the Grand Duchy of Finland in a red coat of paint as a new Finnish SSR? because it seems that after it was made clear that the Soviets would not be able to capture all of Finland, they just opted to turn it into the Finnish Democratic Republic puppet state.

Asking because I am working on a TL/map of a more powerful USSR in WW2 who is able to establish these borders of the FDR:
1939_Finnish_Democratic_Republic.png
 
I doubt they would annex it. Its not a Soviet State. Probably a puppet state like Mongolia or Tannu Tuva. Or something in between, depending on war results.
 
If Stalin intended to annex it, it would've been a normal Soviet Republic, not only an autonomous republic within the Russian Soviet Republic.

Agree. There is not any idea not to give SSR status for Finland. Even Baltic republics were annexed as SSRs and they were much smaller and they were younger nations than Finland. Finland had most of Russian era very large autonomy unlike Baltic lands which even got their interwar borders only just end of WW1. Finland had too much higher population than any Baltic nation.
 
Guys, I am asking if there are any sources/documents that imply the USSR wanted to full-blown annex Finland as an SSR like they did to the baltics, not puppetize it, for the sake of convenience since I was unable to find something mentioning this, I will put the proposed map of the FDR on the timeline, since I think it is very underrated and underused, also interesting that the USSR would cede its own territory to another country, even if that country is a puppet state and if that territory is useless.
 
Agree. There is not any idea not to give SSR status for Finland. Even Baltic republics were annexed as SSRs and they were much smaller and they were younger nations than Finland. Finland had most of Russian era very large autonomy unlike Baltic lands which even got their interwar borders only just end of WW1. Finland had too much higher population than any Baltic nation.

I don't tihnk you read that right, there is no indication Stalin wanted Finland annexed.

The difference between the baltic states and Finland is that the red army in the revolution never tried to invade Finland, but they did and failed with the baltic states and Poland. Thats why the batlic states were invadedand turned into a soviet state, to correct that mistake basically. But Finland's independence had always been honoured.

So if they do win the winter war big, they will make it a puppet, which is a lot easier to control and hold. If they annex they can count on big dissent and attrition. Not worth it.
 

TheSpectacledCloth

Gone Fishin'
I don't tihnk you read that right, there is no indication Stalin wanted Finland annexed.

The difference between the baltic states and Finland is that the red army in the revolution never tried to invade Finland, but they did and failed with the baltic states and Poland. Thats why the batlic states were invadedand turned into a soviet state, to correct that mistake basically. But Finland's independence had always been honoured.

So if they do win the winter war big, they will make it a puppet, which is a lot easier to control and hold. If they annex they can count on big dissent and attrition. Not worth it.
I believe the USSR didn't target Finland in the 1920's was because it wasn't as big as a geopolitical priority. There's a reason why the USSR didn't want to annex all of Poland, just the eastern half filled with Belarussians and Ukrainians. The Baltic states were much easier to control and they were less autonomous in the Russian Empire than Finland. Congress Poland and Finland were likely both considered to be the equivalent of extra credit for the USSR, and they would probably be filled with rebellion.

So you're right that annexing Finland into the USSR wouldn't be worthwhile, but that wouldn't stop Stalin from trying.
 
The creation of a cabinet-in-waiting in the form of the Terijoki government was not something that happened after initial Soviet war aims were frustrated. It was brought into existence a day after the start of the Winter War, and we have every indication that Stalin expected to elevate these handpicked exiles into leadership in Helsinki on the back of Red Army bayonets.

Shortly after the formation of the Terijoki government, TASS declared that, "The People's Government in its present composition regards itself as a provisional government. Immediately upon arrival in Helsinki, capital of the country, it will be reorganised and its composition enlarged by the inclusion of representatives of the various parties and groups participating in the people's front of toilers. The final composition of the People's Government, its powers and actions, are to be sanctioned by a Diet elected on the basis of universal equal direct suffrage by secret ballot."

Molotov also informed German diplomats that, "This government will not be Soviet but a democratic republic. Nobody will set up soviets there, but we hope that it will be a government that we can reach agreement with on safeguarding the security of Leningrad." Of course, the idea that the Soviet government 'hoped to reach an agreement' with the Terijoki exile government was a convenient fiction, but nevertheless it does signal Soviet intentions.

This isn't even mentioning the number of agreements made with the 'Finnish Democratic Republic' regarding leasing the Hanko Peninsula and other territories in exchange for the turning over of parts of Karelia. I think all the evidence points to the elevation of a puppet government in Helsinki rather than outright annexation of Finland in the USSR. Considering that they marketed the Finnish Democratic Republic as a legitimate authority internationally, it would make more sense to keep it sovereign anyways. Comparisons to the Baltic states and eastern Poland are a bit weak considering the very different circumstances between the Soviet annexations there and the Soviet diplomatic maneuvers during the Winter War.
 
Guys, I am asking if there are any sources/documents that imply the USSR wanted to full-blown annex Finland as an SSR like they did to the baltics, not puppetize it, for the sake of convenience since I was unable to find something mentioning this, I will put the proposed map of the FDR on the timeline, since I think it is very underrated and underused, also interesting that the USSR would cede its own territory to another country, even if that country is a puppet state and if that territory is useless.

It is also very hard to find bona fide 1939 Soviet documents that confirm Stalin's plans for annexing Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in the near future. Yet these countries were occupied and annexed by the USSR in 1940. Apart from Finland, all the territories given to the USSR's sphere in the final version of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact's secret protocol were annexed by the USSR by 1941. Finland was an exception because it chose to fight, and also because of what we can only call historical contingency.

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence available for what Stalin's goals with Finland were, and if one reviews enough of the relevant sources and studies about the matter, I think it is most plausible to say that Stalin's goals with regards to Finland were very much in line with his goals towards the *other* three Baltic states to the south. The arguments that make Finland into a special case are, in my view, essentially based on hindsight and OTL bias, looking at events from a reality where Finland managed to survive through WWII as an independent nation. It is not realistic, IMO, to claim that Stalin saw Finland as a special case before the Winter War. It was the Finnish resistance in this war, and what followed from it, that changed Stalin's views about the matter of Finland.

I'll quote myself from an older thread:

There is a 2016 book on Stalin that was quite relevant for this issue, Stalin ja Suomen kohtalo ("Stalin and Finland's destiny") by Kimmo Rentola, a University of Helsinki history professor. I've already referred to it a couple of times on the forum by now. Rentola looks at Stalin's treatment of Finland between the 30s and his death, and attempts to explain why he did the decisions he did with regards to the small Western neighbour. What stands out from Rentola's treatment is that a) Stalin apparently never had a "masterplan" for Europe, but his plans were changing all the time, depending on changing circumstances, and b) the events of the Winter War were the crucial thing that branded the relations between Stalin and the Finnish leadership in 1940-1953. To read Rentola's well-sourced (if pretty compact) book, it then appears that it was only through the Winter War that Finland became a "special case" for Stalin - the Finnish will and ability to put up a resistance apparently had a significant effect on him in terms of how he viewed Finland. Before that, we might argue that he viewed Finland in the same light as the Baltic states, only differing from them in terms of its more northern and on balance more peripheral geographical position, not in terms of the justification of its national existence. After early 1940, though, Stalin apparently had a grudging respect towards Finland, in that the nation could put up a credible defence, and then attract foreign support for its cause (as manifested in the Allied intervention plans during the Winter War, of which Stalin had a distorted view, due to skewed sources).

Stalin's treatment of Finland during the Continuation War and after it should then be seen in this light, especially as his view about the Finnish will and ability to defend themselves was probably reaffirmed through the battles of the summer of 1944. But, if we accept Rentola's thesis, we should not project this acceptance by Stalin to treat Finland as a special case into the pre-Winter War situation, or into a TL where there is not Winter War, especially to one where the Finns would cave in to Soviet demands in 38-39. In such a TL, Stalin would have much less will to treat Finland in an almost cordial fashion. We need to remember that even if it is sometimes claimed that Stalin "always" had a bit of a soft spot for Finland, in the purges he absolutely decimated the cadres of Finnish Communist leaders and civil warriors who had escaped into Soviet Russia post-1918.

To put this in somewhat different words: Stalin was a careful, cynical opportunist. He had maximalist goals, but he knew when not to push his luck. That is to say that he was good in employing a cost/benefit analysis in his strategy. His goals in Finland were, well, totalitarian. But IOTL the events and circumstances conspired for him to not be able to realise his ultimate goals. In a different TL where nothing would seem to really prevent Finland from being annexed into the USSR in 1939-40, it would be unrealistic to expect Stalin to forgo that opportunity simply due to the goodness of his black heart, or due to having some imagined "soft spot" for the Finns. This was a man who killed millions with the stroke of a pen, and relocated and decimated entire ethnic groups at will.

The creation of a cabinet-in-waiting in the form of the Terijoki government was not something that happened after initial Soviet war aims were frustrated. It was brought into existence a day after the start of the Winter War, and we have every indication that Stalin expected to elevate these handpicked exiles into leadership in Helsinki on the back of Red Army bayonets.

Shortly after the formation of the Terijoki government, TASS declared that, "The People's Government in its present composition regards itself as a provisional government. Immediately upon arrival in Helsinki, capital of the country, it will be reorganised and its composition enlarged by the inclusion of representatives of the various parties and groups participating in the people's front of toilers. The final composition of the People's Government, its powers and actions, are to be sanctioned by a Diet elected on the basis of universal equal direct suffrage by secret ballot."

Molotov also informed German diplomats that, "This government will not be Soviet but a democratic republic. Nobody will set up soviets there, but we hope that it will be a government that we can reach agreement with on safeguarding the security of Leningrad." Of course, the idea that the Soviet government 'hoped to reach an agreement' with the Terijoki exile government was a convenient fiction, but nevertheless it does signal Soviet intentions.

This isn't even mentioning the number of agreements made with the 'Finnish Democratic Republic' regarding leasing the Hanko Peninsula and other territories in exchange for the turning over of parts of Karelia. I think all the evidence points to the elevation of a puppet government in Helsinki rather than outright annexation of Finland in the USSR. Considering that they marketed the Finnish Democratic Republic as a legitimate authority internationally, it would make more sense to keep it sovereign anyways. Comparisons to the Baltic states and eastern Poland are a bit weak considering the very different circumstances between the Soviet annexations there and the Soviet diplomatic maneuvers during the Winter War.

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were annexed by the USSR through a process where in 1940 "free elections" were held in these countries under Soviet occupation, a "people's parliament" was elected, and this parliament then humbly petitioned for these nations to be joined to the USSR. Which Moscow then graciously accepted, of course.

The fact that the "Finnish Democratic Republic" existed "legitimately" was in no way a guarantee against a similar chain of events happening in Finland. Quite to the contrary, Kuusinen's government being brought to power in Helsinki, propped up by the bayonets of the Red Army, might have just been the first step towards that very outcome. Finland would have been an ostensibly independent people's republic, but after some time the Finnish people's parliament would have seen it fit to ask to be joined into the great family of Soviet peoples. This would have been their legitimate right, from Moscow's POV, and it would have been marketed as such in Soviet propaganda. This might not have happened immediately in the winter of 39-40, but Stalin might have pushed this forward for months to wait for a time when the Western powers would be suitably more distracted. IOTL the occupation and annexation of the Baltic states happened in the summer of 1940, during Hitler's invasion of France. It would be very plausible, IMO, to expect that if Finland was occupied by the USSR and the Kuusinen government was in power, the Finnish "plea" to be included in to the USSR as an SSR might have taken place at the same time as that of the *other* three Baltic states as well.

When you think about it, that offer of "better" borders to Finland is in fact a very strong indication of what Stalin wanted for Finland. Can you name a single country the USSR voluntarily gave any of its prewar territory during the WWII years? Even one that became a People's Republic and a member of the Warsaw Pact after the war? The mere idea of giving what was a sizable chunk of Soviet land in Karelia to "Kuusinen's Finland" shows that Stalin intended this not to be a border between independent nations, but one between administrative areas inside the USSR itself.
 
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I don't think Stalin wanted to gobble up the entirety of Finland at all. The Soviets just wanted Karelia, which the Finns ceded at the end of the Winter War.
 
It is also very hard to find bona fide 1939 Soviet documents that confirm Stalin's plans for annexing Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in the near future. Yet these countries were occupied and annexed by the USSR in 1940.
Well, it is because annexation of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania into USSR proper was also entirely unplanned. The annexation was provoked by unexpected successes of Germany in France and discovery of ongoing talks between elements in Lithuanian government and Germany on possible military and intelligence cooperation.

Of course it could be argued that USSR would annex Finland in a similar fashion in case of Fins accepting the Soviet demands to avoid war. But in the same time Soviet demands did not include significant Soviet military presence in the country (outside of Hanko naval base), so pulling exactly what Soviets did in the Baltics would be much harder.
 
It should be noted that even if there is not public records it doesn't mean that Stalin wouldn't had planned annexation of Finland and Baltics good time before Winter War and occupation of Baltic nations. Anyone hardly wrote that up or even has, it might be hidden deep to archives of KGB/foreign ministry/Stalin's personal archives and officials have decided never publish or let people to see these documents.
 
Well, it is because annexation of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania into USSR proper was also entirely unplanned. The annexation was provoked by unexpected successes of Germany in France and discovery of ongoing talks between elements in Lithuanian government and Germany on possible military and intelligence cooperation.

Like I argued above, Stalin was a cynical opportunist who struck when the situation seemed to allow it. That said, certainly neither the Winter War nor the occupation of the Baltic states were "entirely" unplanned efforts, I doubt the Red Army of 1939-40 could have pulled off any strategic operations requiring c. 500 000 men without there being at least some planning and practical preparation before kicking off an effort of that scale.

Unless you think that Finland giving up to Soviet demands in 1939, or losing the Winter War outright will create significant butterflies for the Battle of France, then we could plausibly expect Stalin to move on the *four* Baltic states in the summer of 1940 as well. Remember that there would be no need for as good success for the Germans as was realised IOTL, just the Western Allies being knee-deep in fighting with the German army would be enough of a distraction that they could not realistically move against the USSR in support of the Baltics. So even some butterflies from things going differently up north since November 1939 would have been allowed for a Soviet takeover of the Baltics still happening pretty much on schedule.

Of course it could be argued that USSR would annex Finland in a similar fashion in case of Fins accepting the Soviet demands to avoid war. But in the same time Soviet demands did not include significant Soviet military presence in the country (outside of Hanko naval base), so pulling exactly what Soviets did in the Baltics would be much harder.

Significant Soviet presence in Hanko alone, as well as breaking the so-called Mannerheim Line in half on the Karelian Isthmus would make defending the country significantly more difficult for Finland. The Finnish Army would need to position a sizable number of troops (at least a couple of divisions' worth) along the Hanko perimeter to prevent Soviet attack from the area towards Helsinki. Looking at the numbers in the OTL Hanko front of 1941, this might require up to 10% of the entire Finnish mobilised strength in 1940. These troops could not then be on the Karelian Isthmus like IOTL, which together with the compromised physical defence lines would put the Finns in a measurable worse position than IOTL. Given how touch and go things were with the Winter War, and how certain Finnish loss would have been had the war gone on for longer, even with determined Finnish resistance I could see the Finnish defence being broken by the Red Army in under two months in the summer of 1940.

And certainly if the Finnish government caved in to the Soviet demands in the fall of 1939, the Soviet government would keep them in a diplomatic vise after that, and conduct a campaign of further demands, complaints and restrictions to gradually shatter the morale of the Finnish leadership and the Finnish military. Just like they did to the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians in the same timeframe, and like they did to the Finns also after the Winter War. You are a more optimistic person than I am if you think that, in the event, the morale of the Finns couldn't be broken and a defeatist mood fostered among them. The Baltic states gave up without a fight IOTL, ITTL also the Finnish government and military leadership might think that resistance to the Soviet juggernaut would be pointless, especially after the nation's ability to defend itself would have now been undermined in different ways that were not true in late 1939. It is not at all a foregone conclusion that in a situation like this, the Finns would have managed a similar defensive effort in the summer of 1940 as they did IOTL in the winter of 1939-40.
 
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Stalin apparently never had a "masterplan" for Europe, but his plans were changing all the time, depending on changing circumstances
Sure, I am entirely in agreement with this point. Stalin did not have a blow-by-blow strategic plan by which Soviet policy was conducted in the 1920s and 1930s. Even the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a relatively ad-hoc measure after overtures to Britain and France resulted in nothing. That makes Finland a bit of a wildcard when it comes to what it's ultimate status would be. Still though, as you mentioned, Finnish resistance ultimately warded off the plan to topple their government and the Terijoki cabinet was eventually discarded and dissolved. I think this is a major point in favor of the idea that the Finnish puppet government would maintain the form of national independence rather than being outright integrated like the smaller Baltic republics and eastern Poland. Even if the Red Army improves its Winter War performance and eventually the Red Army overruns the country, I see no reason why Finnish resistance would not continue. The overwhelming unity of even the Finnish left with the cause of national independence at the outbreak of the war and the decimation of communist Finns means that the Soviet occupation will have to work with a difficult environment. Given the outpouring of Finnish nationalism, the obvious policy here would be to not annex the country and even use the return of a Finnish-speaking Karelia as a carrot, which I believe was the intention behind the move IOTL.

Considering how initial Soviet demands over military basing rights (like in the Baltics) kicked off the conflict, I think that if Finland rolled over like the Baltic states did then annexation was almost certainly going to happen. After the fact of the war though, I think the maintenance of a puppet government under the façade of national independence makes more sense. This gels well with Stalin's attitude towards Poland in 1920. In the Politburo minutes, we read of Stalin being one of the few to defend the idea of a Polish puppet state rather than an outright SSR within the union framework. Polish nationalism was too strong a factor by that point, and had to be appeased. While the circumstances were different, I think this position would still be the plausible move in this scenario.
 
While I don't know the full extent of it, I'm fairly certain the USSR had plans and ambitions for Finland.

This began after the Russian Empire fell, when Finland became independent. A civil war broke out between the Finnish Whites (who supported democracy) and the Finnish Reds (who supported socialism). Both factions competed for total control of Finland, and the Reds were backed up by the Russian SFSR. If they won, they may have considered joining the Soviet Union. I think the union, or at least Russia, would want something like that.
 
Yeah, probably. It was part of the Russian Empire, after all, and the Soviets annexed the Baltic states, so I see no reason why they wouldn't create the Finnish SSR after the war.
 
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