I think in at least one of the Ottoman Constutitional Eras there were some non-Turkish members of the parliament.
 

Germaniac

Donor
Absolutely. Since this is after 1900 ill stick to that. Between the Second Congressional Era starting in 1909 and until the Balkan Wars there were alot of Greeks (and every other ethnic group for the most part) in the government. There were Greeks in even in the Cabinet. I can go into more detail if you'd like or if you have any specific questions go ahead.
 

Germaniac

Donor
I wrote this in an earlier thread and i think it gives a better idea of what im talking about
I am talking about the results of a victory in the First Balkan War.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Any violence occuring against ethnic minorities, save for those openly rebelling like the Albanians, is going to be minimal. One of the major reasons fot the CUP shift to dictatorship was that their power base was located in Rumelia. Loosing those provinces meant the christian and jewish minorities of the empire were gone. Had the Ottomans won the war and faced no territorial losses the power of islam in the empire would be lessened not heightened.

If you look at the coalitions formed prior to the war there were healthy amounts of Greeks Jews Bulgarians and Macedonians in both the parliment and in cabinent positions (though not the most important offices)

One thing thats always been facinating about the Ottomans was there openness to allow any person loyal to the empire, regardless of their ethnic or religious background, have positions in bith the military and the government. Well... until their series of disasters in both wars and seemingly endless coups leading to the proto fascist tendencies during the great war.
 
I wrote this in an earlier thread and i think it gives a better idea of what im talking about
I am talking about the results of a victory in the First Balkan War.
of
The minorities were being marginalized even before the First Balkan War, for example by efforts destroy autonomous institutions of these minorities. And the idea that Christians had any significant role in the military, in this period or any other is not even close to being true.
 

Germaniac

Donor
of
The minorities were being marginalized even before the First Balkan War, for example by efforts destroy autonomous institutions of these minorities. And the idea that Christians had any significant role in the military, in this period or any other is not even close to being true.

I should have made it clearer, yes you are correct. In the military Christians generally speaking did not have a significant presence. What i meant was more along the lines of ethnic groups, where the military staff actually had more Kurds and Albanians than Turks for example.

To think simply along the lines of religion is playing into the propaganda portraying the Empire as this evil decaying husk. Following the start of the second constitutional era, christians were absolutely encouraged to engage in the government. In many cases it was their own refusal and nationalistic fevor that prevented them from doing so. The early CUP absolutely had christians Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians. As did the Ottoman assembly and the Ottoman Cabinet. And that's completely ignoring the Jewish community which was also playong a larger role specifically in Salonika. This was all in fact part of the CUP's policy of Ottomanization wad opposed to Turkification.

Following the Italo-Ottoman War, Saviors Officers Coup, First Balkan War, and the Hardline CUP coup in 1913 all attempts at ottomanization were out the window. They lost their European communities and the went the turkification route under Proto-Hitler Enver Pasha.

The early fascist tendencies of the Ottoman government during the twilight days of the Empire and WW1 was a very far cry from the Ottoman government only a few years before.
 
I should have made it clearer, yes you are correct. In the military Christians generally speaking did not have a significant presence. What i meant was more along the lines of ethnic groups, where the military staff actually had more Kurds and Albanians than Turks for example.

To think simply along the lines of religion is playing into the propaganda portraying the Empire as this evil decaying husk. Following the start of the second constitutional era, christians were absolutely encouraged to engage in the government. In many cases it was their own refusal and nationalistic fevor that prevented them from doing so. The early CUP absolutely had christians Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians. As did the Ottoman assembly and the Ottoman Cabinet. And that's completely ignoring the Jewish community which was also playong a larger role specifically in Salonika. This was all in fact part of the CUP's policy of Ottomanization wad opposed to Turkification.
Not really. In fact there were guerilla group like the IMRO who abandoned armed resistance and participated in elections (in fact a fraction of IMRO helped the CUP in the overthrow of Abdul Hamid). By 1910 it had become clear however that Ottomanism meant nothing different than domination and forceful Turkification by another name. In fact all national organizations were banned in August 1910. So if any nationalism was to blame, it was that of the Young Turks.

And there's no need to list both Bulgarians and Macedonians since the great majority of the former were also the later.
 
So if any nationalism was to blame, it was that of the Young Turks.

That's pretty much what Germaniac said in his post.

To Americans, Bulgarians are from Bulgaria, Macedonians are from Macedonia; we don't follow the ethnic differences like someone from southeastern Europe.
 
That's pretty much what Germaniac said in his post.
This is certainly not how "In many cases it was their own refusal and nationalistic fevor that prevented them from doing [engaging in the government] can be interpreted.

To Americans, Bulgarians are from Bulgaria, Macedonians are from Macedonia; we don't follow the ethnic differences like someone from southeastern Europe.
By this logic everyone from the Ottoman Empire would be Ottomans and the Empire should be an oasis of peace and understanding.
 
Did you even read Germaniac's post? In it, he states that non-Muslim minorities were encouraged to participate in the government and there were Christians elected to the 2nd Congress. Were they effective? Probably not, and a lot of that was due to the rising nationalism on both parties, Christians and Turks.

By this logic everyone from the Ottoman Empire would be Ottomans and the Empire should be an oasis of peace and understanding.
I never said it was a correct viewpoint. It's just that the average American, isn't very well versed on the various ethnic groups of the area and their histories.
I believe that Germaniac was just listing many of the various parties and didn't want to offend any of them but omitting them.

BTW, today, do Macedonians (people of the Republic of Macedonia) consider themselves Macedonians or Bulgarian? From what I have read, they consider themselves Macedonian and not Bulgarian.
 
Did you even read Germaniac's post? In it, he states that non-Muslim minorities were encouraged to participate in the government and there were Christians elected to the 2nd Congress. Were they effective? Probably not, and a lot of that was due to the rising nationalism on both parties, Christians and Turks.

The only mention of Turkish nationalism is for the period after the Balkan wars. Before that only the nationalism of the Christians is blamed.


BTW, today, do Macedonians (people of the Republic of Macedonia) consider themselves Macedonians or Bulgarian? From what I have read, they consider themselves Macedonian and not Bulgarian.

You are (mostly) right about this being true today, but it certainly wasn't true at the period under discussion. At the time Macedonians was a regional identification of Bulgarians. In fact as I mentioned above a fraction of IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) formed a political party called People's Federative Party (Bulgarian Section). The other political party active among people who are called today Macedonians was named Union of the Bulgarian Constitutional Clubs and a significant fraction of its members were also former members of IMRO. And incidentally though the organization of the Macedonian revolutionaries is usually called IMRO in English, a better translation would be IMARO, with the A standing for Adrianople since its area of operation included both Macedonia and Eastern Thrace – all the regions with large Bulgarian populations in the Ottoman Empire.
 
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