Did the Great Reform Act start/cause the decline of the British Monarchy?

I'm not entirely sure why the OP has specified the Great Reform Act as something which particularly affected Royal Power in Britain - as it really had little to do with that directly. Nor am I sure what, exactly, we are talking about in terms of Royal Powers here.

If we are talking about the ability to appoint or dismiss Prime Ministers, then that was already on the way out of the window under George III. Whilst in the 1760s and 1770s George III did appoint his own Prime Ministers [although they weren't called that] it quickly became untenable after Pitt the Younger for a number of reasons. One of these was the rise of Party Politics. It was very hard being an appointed Prime Minister like Pitt or North - you had to essentially go to the Commons and cajole/encourage/force/bride a majority of MPs into going along with you over each major decision. As the franchise widened in the nineteenth century and the powers of Government became more complex, this would get harder and harder, and the need to cohesively form a longer term government than on a vote by vote basis was the reason behind the growth of Party Politics. Once the Party system has cemented in Britain it would be near impossible for the Monarch to appoint a PM from the Commons without either going against the will of the electorate [if picking someone from a minority party] or upsetting the power balance of a major party [if picking a PM from a majority party who wasn't the assumed leader already]. George III was already realising this by the 1790s, he was just lucky in finding in Pitt someone who he liked and who could also consistently secure a majority in Parliament.

I'm also not sure about calling Queen Victoria uneducated and reliant on her husband and PMs. She was a female monarch in a man's age, and young at that, so of course she took advice, but in a political sense Victoria was one of the better educated monarchs to sit on the throne. Once on the throne she read widely and very politically, but much of what she read, as was the current at the time, was constitutionally based. Still, she wielded considerable influence, especially when it came to British foreign policy. Her and Albert's ''Liberal Project'' in Europe had long reaching consequences.

You've also got to remember that you can't single out one monarch or moment as a turning point with something like this. The huge currents of thought at the time - Liberalism, Nationalism, Republicanism - all influenced how the monarchy imaged its role in society and politics. Victoria was influenced by the German Liberal Baron Stockmar, her advisor, but also by what was happening in Europe. The collapse of the July Monarchy was a major shock to not just her but many in Europe. Almost exactly what you are asking for here - a early c19th state with a parliament but also a monarch with a little more direct power than in Britain - the Orleanist Monarchy just collapsed when it proved unwilling to bend to political opposition. Considering that Victoria was a great fan of the French historian Guizot, who was Louis Philippe's Prime Minister, she was particularly shocked to see the collapse of a ''modern monarchy'' and 1848 influenced her thinking considerably.

In brief - its a lot more complicated than a single simple POD will allow, the context of what is happening in Europe [especially post-1789] is key, and what precisely is meant by Royal Power is quite vague.
 
That's not true at all. The Stuarts inherited the English throne and were under completely separate legal boundaries in Scotland.

It's completely true. A different dynasty coming to throne doesn't change the fact it's the same monarchy. If another Mary came to the British throne, how do you think she would be numbered?
 
The reform act didn't even create significantly greater voting numbers, it streamlined constituency system to combat corruption, but that has nothing to do with the monarchy's role
 
It's completely true. A different dynasty coming to throne doesn't change the fact it's the same monarchy. If another Mary came to the British throne, how do you think she would be numbered?
2 separate kingdoms with separate parliaments that happen to share a monarch is different to a single kingdom with a single parliament.

Each monarch also was designated with a numeral that fit within their kingdom - James I of England, VI of Scotland, and I of Ireland afterall.
Since the acts of union that unified England and Scotland under Anne the only numerals that were different for hypothetical separate crowns were William IV, Edwards VII and VIII, and Elizabeth II, and these caused issues when used under Scottish law - despite a single crown and throne the law was held separate.
Because of the controversy under Elizabeth it was agreed that future monarchs of Great Britain would use the higher regnal number regardless of previous use in England, Scotland, or Ireland.

It's worth pointing out that Mary II of England, II of Scotland, II of Ireland, actually was the 3rd Mary as Queen Regnant since Mary Tudor was I of England, I of Ireland, and Mary Stuart was I of Scotland.
 
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Well, to be extra pedantic, while the governments remained separate the Stuart Monarchs did almost immediately start adding King of (Great) Britain as their primary nominal title. I think it's fair to speak of a British Monarch post-1603 as long as one makes clear these distinctions with regards to such things
.

Completely agree, if James VI was here he'd tell you he's a British monarch. He was very much in favour of creating a pannational identity
 
It's completely true. A different dynasty coming to throne doesn't change the fact it's the same monarchy. If another Mary came to the British throne, how do you think she would be numbered?

If another James came to the British throne how would they be numbered?

The British monarchy's power is derived from the rules of the British Kingdom which didn't exist until 1707. Obviously we all know that the strength of the monarch in the Kingdom of Scotland and England will influence it.

Now you can of course say that all monarchs in Britain are British, get into the delightful mess of where not the Kings in Ireland were then British, being part of the British Isles, but if there is only one British monarchy which is referred to with "the". The power of British monarchs starts with Anne, and debatedly with James VI.
 
If another James came to the British throne how would they be numbered?
future monarchs of Great Britain would use the higher regnal number regardless of previous use in England, Scotland, or Ireland.
Ie
James VIII, Alexander IV, Robert IV, David III, Malcolm V, Margaret II, etc as the Scottish number is highest
Henry IX, Elizabeth III, Richard IV, William V, Stephen II, etc as the English number is highest
Interestingly the ones that will be the same despite different monarchs would be Mary III and John II.
(And obviously ones only had since personal and political union: Charles III, Anne II, Victoria II, George VIII)
 
Indeed I knew that I was being rhetorical, unlikely to ever occur sadly, but I would love to see the fallout and confusion over a James VIII
 
Now you can of course say that all monarchs in Britain are British, get into the delightful mess of where not the Kings in Ireland were then British, being part of the British Isles, but if there is only one British monarchy which is referred to with "the".
I sometimes think we'd have been saved a bit of bother if James I/VI/I had used the phrase King of Albion. Then using British to include the island of Ireland would not be so political.
 
Indeed I knew that I was being rhetorical, unlikely to ever occur sadly, but I would love to see the fallout and confusion over a James VIII
Indeed.
Closely related if the Prince of Wales does outlive Elizabeth he's said he'd rather be George VIII than Charles III. Or Phillip or Arthur.
William is probably staying William V but could use Arthur, Phillip, or Louis.
Little George could use Alexander or Louis.
 
I sometimes think we'd have been saved a bit of bother if James I/VI/I had used the phrase King of Albion. Then using British to include the island of Ireland would not be so political.

Personally I wish he had a roman fetish and we could have had Emperor of Britannia in 1800: subdivided into Cumbria, Anglia (which could be split more), Caledonia and Hibernia.

Also it gives a faux claim to Thule (Iceland which has to be Thulia to match) and Faroe Islands and the such.

Doesn't really work unless the Hibernian Union of the Crowns (but really why not immediately?) is very quick after the Caledonian and Anglian but still I would enjoy

Emperor Jamius I of Britannia; King of Anglia, Caledonia, Cumbria, Hibernia, and Thulia; Lord of Faria, Mania, and all the Isles.
 
The only way George III is preserving the monarchy's power is if he declares for the Patriots and turns the American Revolution into a revolution against a corrupt Parliament.

Edit: but that's ASB.
 
The power of the monarchy could be extended longer but only at George III levels of influence, nothing more. George and his advisors did their best to have as much influence as possible, and modeled him as a Patriot King above partisan politics, changed the system of patronage so it was in the hands of whoever was PM rather than those who knew the system best (i.e. the Pelhams), and would thwart potential PMs he disliked.

Hm, while I definitely think that George III was close to the height of power one could realistically see for the British Monarchy, I think a very skilled ruler or a succession of competent monarchs could manage to get back to Queen Anne levels. I can see a detailed oriented/micromanaging Sovereign determined to personally lead Cabinet meetings. Maybe not all of them but at least one Cabinet meeting a week at the Palace or something. Perhaps we can also see a Sovereign fully separate Royal Household appointments from the Government of the day. If the monarch could do so, the Crown would effectively take direct charge of patronage.

However, ruling directly like a US President is simply off the cards. Through his best efforts, he was the most powerful political stakeholder in the system but still a stakeholder. The UK is clearly a parliamentary system at this point and George had to operate through that, using patronage and threats to cultivate his own faction and make alliances with others. It is also a parliament with the vast majority of MPs being Whigs, formally or informally. This was defined as respecting the constitutional settlement of 1689. The end of the Jacobite movement in 1745 actually makes the monarchy weaker, because it ends the sense of "better the Hannovers than the Stuarts".

Totally agree that ruling like a President was impossible. Maybe, maybe mind you, it would have been possible if James II had defeated the Glorious revolution though to be honest even then I'm a little skeptical. Though I do disagree with you on the end of the Jacobites weakening the Monarchy. If anything the end of the Jacobites started to weaken both the Whigs and the Tories, which gave George III the opportunity to retake/revive powers that his grandfather and great-grandfather let fall by the wayside.

As mentioned, what could happen is a longer continuation of George III's level of influence. IOTL the monarchy continued to decline in power to be virtually fully ceremonial by the beginning of Victoria's reign. If you avoid George III's madness that helps, and you would also need more activist sons who are both politically focused and leaning more autocratic than OTL. However, you are fighting a general dynamic towards being a more and more parliamentary and democratic country. Kings can maintain or diminish their power, but it's very very hard for them to increase it. That means a trend towards ceremonial monarchy sooner or later.

I gotta disagree. If you can combine a non-crazy George III and a competent George IV (a bit difficult but not impossible, one can easily have a POD where George III doesn't have Porphyria or whatever caused his illness) then I think we can have a Monarchy that preserves it's powers for at lest much of the 19th century. We're talking about a POD in the 1760s or thereabouts, so there's no guarantee that we'd see the rise of democracy on a major scale in Britain or Europe, not with something that could block the American Revolution's success.

The Civil war probably had a greater impact - cutting off your monarch's head indicates a much greater limitation on his powers.

Sort of. I mean Charles II and James II still welded just as much power as their father, though the former was obviously wiser than his predecessor and successor.

I'm not entirely sure why the OP has specified the Great Reform Act as something which particularly affected Royal Power in Britain - as it really had little to do with that directly. Nor am I sure what, exactly, we are talking about in terms of Royal Powers here.

If we are talking about the ability to appoint or dismiss Prime Ministers, then that was already on the way out of the window under George III. Whilst in the 1760s and 1770s George III did appoint his own Prime Ministers [although they weren't called that] it quickly became untenable after Pitt the Younger for a number of reasons. One of these was the rise of Party Politics. It was very hard being an appointed Prime Minister like Pitt or North - you had to essentially go to the Commons and cajole/encourage/force/bride a majority of MPs into going along with you over each major decision. As the franchise widened in the nineteenth century and the powers of Government became more complex, this would get harder and harder, and the need to cohesively form a longer term government than on a vote by vote basis was the reason behind the growth of Party Politics. Once the Party system has cemented in Britain it would be near impossible for the Monarch to appoint a PM from the Commons without either going against the will of the electorate [if picking someone from a minority party] or upsetting the power balance of a major party [if picking a PM from a majority party who wasn't the assumed leader already]. George III was already realising this by the 1790s, he was just lucky in finding in Pitt someone who he liked and who could also consistently secure a majority in Parliament.

Like I said in my first post, that's simply what I've heard before. Didn't know if it was true or not so that's part of the reason I made this thread in the first place. Anyway I never really understood why Queen Victoria couldn't appoint anyone she wanted as PM. Many continental, constitutional monarchs were easily able to do so even with universal suffrage, so why couldn't the same work in Britain? Was it because the British had a head-start in party politics when compared to the Continent or was it merely a monarch never risked it? As for appointing whomever you want from within the party in power, why couldn't that work? I mean there would be objections but in the mid 1800s that convention that the Party leader had to be PM has only just emerging. So in theory whomever was able to form a government should be PM, that man might not necessarily be the Party leader.

I'm also not sure about calling Queen Victoria uneducated and reliant on her husband and PMs. She was a female monarch in a man's age, and young at that, so of course she took advice, but in a political sense Victoria was one of the better educated monarchs to sit on the throne. Once on the throne she read widely and very politically, but much of what she read, as was the current at the time, was constitutionally based. Still, she wielded considerable influence, especially when it came to British foreign policy. Her and Albert's ''Liberal Project'' in Europe had long reaching consequences.

You've also got to remember that you can't single out one monarch or moment as a turning point with something like this. The huge currents of thought at the time - Liberalism, Nationalism, Republicanism - all influenced how the monarchy imaged its role in society and politics. Victoria was influenced by the German Liberal Baron Stockmar, her advisor, but also by what was happening in Europe. The collapse of the July Monarchy was a major shock to not just her but many in Europe. Almost exactly what you are asking for here - a early c19th state with a parliament but also a monarch with a little more direct power than in Britain - the Orleanist Monarchy just collapsed when it proved unwilling to bend to political opposition. Considering that Victoria was a great fan of the French historian Guizot, who was Louis Philippe's Prime Minister, she was particularly shocked to see the collapse of a ''modern monarchy'' and 1848 influenced her thinking considerably.

In brief - its a lot more complicated than a single simple POD will allow, the context of what is happening in Europe [especially post-1789] is key, and what precisely is meant by Royal Power is quite vague.

I would from looking at her childhood and the Kensington system. She was raised to be dependent on her mother and Sir Jon Conroy, something she rejected but ultimately became dependent first on Lord Melbourne and later Prince Albert. Victoria herself admitted her education was woefully lacking. Though I won't deny that in her middle and post Albert years she definitely became a great monarch, in the early years (say 1837-1850 or so) she was very much a cipher. And I wouldn't call their Liberal project all that successful; in fact I'd go so far as to call it a failure. It hinged totally on a liberal Germany, which never happened. I suppose you could give them some credit for Italy but that was more Palmerston and Russell.

I hadn't considered just how surprising the fall of the July Monarchy must have been. That would explain at least some of it but not all; Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands and Belgium were all constitutional monarchies where the Sovereign has significant powers and three of the four never fell. But yeah 1848 was highly significant for Europe and many monarchs learned different lessons from it.

So ultimately a POD would need more than a monarch with a different personality and would instead need something farther back, like George III accession in 1760?
 
If you can combine a non-crazy George III and a competent George IV (a bit difficult but not impossible, one can easily have a POD where George III doesn't have Porphyria or whatever caused his illness) then I think we can have a Monarchy that preserves it's powers for at lest much of the 19th century. We're talking about a POD in the 1760s or thereabouts, so there's no guarantee that we'd see the rise of democracy on a major scale in Britain or Europe, not with something that could block the American Revolution's success.

Guarantee is such a strong word - and democracy still more than a century away - that I agree with you. But certainly the pressures over the next century are overwhelmingly towards greater representation in the constitutional setup. The rising wealth of the mercantile class and the associated intellectual assault on monarchic power were already baked in by the 1700s. George III's resurgent power was already widely disliked in parliament. Bolingbroke's image of the Patriot King was already considered a "Tory" text, antithetical to Whiggism, and therefore good governance and liberty. If he had gone so far as to chair cabinet meetings it would undoubtedly be seen as continental despotism and invoked a moral panic in the UK. There also was a very established dynamic of anti-Hannoverian sentiment in this vein used by whichever group of Whigs were in opposition at the time. This line of argument was very effective in causing govts to become unpopular and this would take it to the tenth level. I can't imagine any of the leading Whigs (Pelham, Newcastle, Pitt, Rockingham, Fox) being willing to serve in such an administration where the King is effectively own PM due to a combination of ideological opposition and knowledge they would be electorally disastrous. Without those figures, there isn't a majority in the Commons for legislation.

Then of course, the fear of tyranny in the American colonies, already high in our timeline, would be exacerbated here. An underexamined part of the American elite thinking was the movement towards the absolutist state in Europe and Bourbon America was where Britain was heading. It was this broader context that had them so worried about renewed centralisation efforts from the Stamp Act onwards.

Then in the longer term, you have economic power moving towards the middle class, who are even more liberal than the current parliament. It was delayed about as long as possible in our timeline, mainly from the French Revolution causing more scepticism of mass politics. Even then, the UK came close to revolution a couple of times because Reform was delayed so long.
 
No. The British monarchy had been losing powers since Henry VIII. William IV was probably the very first monarch to be truly ceremonial though.

I would say it started with Charles I being defeated. I don’t think Elizabeth was any less powerful than her father.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Be difficult for the British monarchy to lose power prior to its existence

Given the continuity between the English and the British monarchy, this is a rather moot point.

As to the OP: By the 1830s, the principle of parliamentary rule was firmly rooted in British society. Liberal thought (but most tory MPs wouldn't have disagreed) considered the ministers responsible for their monarch's acts. Government was accountable to both the King and Parliament, and both could dismiss it. I don't see I you can save much of the monarchy's influence, save for a royal coup against parliamentary monarchy.
 
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