Did Gaius Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great Prepare their Family Better

He would not for the simply reason who soldiers and political legacy were NOT included in the inheritance and Octavian was years away from a political career.

If Caesar had lived enough Octavian would find all the doors open to him as soon he reached the right age for each step as Caesar had done before him

I think Ceasar intended to live long enough for all the right doors to be open to Octavian when he was the right age too.
 
Whether or not he used the words "to the strongest" feels the least damning part of dying with things in a position so they would go to the strongest. A Macedonian king has no excuse for assuming that everything will go smoothly after their death and that the successor they want will succeed without any conflict, given the kingdom's history.
 
The age requirements of the cursus honorum had been ignored in favor of who had power from day 1. I agree Caesar would have had Octavian climb the ranks semi-legally, but IMO he’d have had doors opened for him early regardless.
Yeah, I think I’d agree with this assessment. I’m my TL, to spoil things slightly, I’m going to have Caesar give Octavius a quaestorship at a much earlier age. It was uncommon, sure, but with approval of the senate, it could happen. Also, you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Cicero argued that the age limits should be ignored for Octavian after Caesar’s death. I know the circumstances were different, but if someone like Cicero was willing to bend the rules, the point still stands. You also have to remember that Caesar was dictator for life with a ton of magisterial power. If he wanted to, he could probably just lower some of the age requirements, like Augustus did in OTL with the praetorship to get his friend, Maecenas, into office
 

bguy

Donor
He would not for the simply reason who soldiers and political legacy were NOT included in the inheritance and Octavian was years away from a political career.

Agreed. Caesar could never have expected that Octavian would be as successful as he was as quickly as he was. Caesar would have to assume that established, powerful men like Antonius, Lepidus, and the Brutii would be the most powerful men in Rome should Caesar die anytime in the next ten years and thus view Octavian as more a long term prospect that would come into his own in about twenty years time.


If Caesar had lived enough Octavian would find all the doors open to him as soon he reached the right age for each step as Caesar had done before him

Caesar probably wouldn't make Octavian wait for the exact right age to stand for consul. He had allowed Antonius to become consul several years early (Antonius was only 39 in 44 BC and thus was consul three years before he was technically eligible) and intended for Decimus Junius Brutus to become consul in 42 BC and Deciumus would have been slightly underage as well as he would have only been 39 in 42 BC. (Publius Cornelius Dolabella, the man Caesar intended to replace him as consul when Caesar left to fight the Dacians, was also probably underage though the historical record is a little spotty on when Dolabella was actually born.)

But yeah at most Caesar would probably let Octavian stand for office two or three years early.
 
Yeah, I think I’d agree with this assessment. I’m my TL, to spoil things slightly, I’m going to have Caesar give Octavius a quaestorship at a much earlier age. It was uncommon, sure, but with approval of the senate, it could happen. Also, you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Cicero argued that the age limits should be ignored for Octavian after Caesar’s death. I know the circumstances were different, but if someone like Cicero was willing to bend the rules, the point still stands. You also have to remember that Caesar was dictator for life with a ton of magisterial power. If he wanted to, he could probably just lower some of the age requirements, like Augustus did in OTL with the praetorship to get his friend, Maecenas, into office

Cicero did argue the age limits should be ignored for Octavian getting into other offices, but not for the consul. Although honestly... what's one more age exemption as long as it has the approval of the Senate? Caesar didn't lower requirements to the praetorship, he used dictatorial authority to appoint some which was legal since... dictator. Also it sort was needed. There were certain administrative positions which legally could only be held by Senators. After the civil war, many senators retired or died and to fill all these positions, you'd need to use almost the entire senate, most of which don't want to leave Rome to live in some backwater. Since you couldn't force someone to fill these positions, the alternative would be to just have them empty and the whole thing would fall apart. Anyone who gets a quaestorship or preatorship automatically becomes a senator.
 

RousseauX

Donor
First of all it's in character for him. Also, if he had in fact let his old plan of "let Antipater sort it out" (Alexander basically told Antipater if he was so worried about him dying while on campaign, he could be the one to draft up an organized succession to someone in the royal family) why does everyone seem to remember his deathbed wish instead of "oh, but he did have a plan for Antipater to figure it out?" My guess the reason people remember him saying "to the strongest" on his deathbed is because... he said it.
He did appoint a regent (Perdikkas) before he died. The thing is the first war of the Diadochi was basically every other successor against Perdikkas, and he was eventually killed by men under his own command (Seleukus among them) while in a war against Ptolmey, Antigonus and Antipater.

So the successors had an incentive to villainize him and underplay the fact he -was- Alexander's chosen regent later on. "To the strongest" sounds a lot better than "to his son under the regency of the guy we murdered"

Alexander also clearly didn't want Antipater to sort it out by the time he died.

By the time he died he didn't trust Antipater, one of his last orders was for Kraterus to march home to Macedon and evict him from his powerbase in the Macedonian homeland
 
Last edited:
By the time he died he didn't trust Antipater, one of his last orders was for Kraterus to march home to Macedon and evict him from his powerbase in the Macedonian homeland

Well he should have done that before he was dying. If he was behind a desk and said "to Kraterus," that would mean he had started a real succession plan and was starting to execute it. If he does it on the deathbed in contradiction to an existing plan, he's just going to cause confusion even if he really did have a change in heart. Also unless Kraterus marries into Alexander's family, even if that was carried out successfully, it meant Alexander failed to prepare for his family. A deathbed wish is useful if you had no plan before or if it reinforces it, not if it contradicts it. After conquering Persia, he had plenty of time to tell everyone was Kraterus was now in charge, but he had to wait until he was sick.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Well he should have done that before he was dying. If he was behind a desk and said "to Kraterus," that would mean he had started a real succession plan and was starting to execute it. If he does it on the deathbed in contradiction to an existing plan, he's just going to cause confusion even if he really did have a change in heart. Also unless Kraterus marries into Alexander's family, even if that was carried out successfully, it meant Alexander failed to prepare for his family. A deathbed wish is useful if you had no plan before or if it reinforces it, not if it contradicts it. After conquering Persia, he had plenty of time to tell everyone was Kraterus was now in charge, but he had to wait until he was sick.
he did it before he was on his deathbed, it's just that in ancient times it took months to march an army from Babylon to Pella

Katerus was in the middle of marching to Macedon when Alexander died, most likely he was somewhere in Anatolia

he also didn't want Kraterus to be in charge: Kraterus had fallen out of favor after opposing Alexander's Greek-Persian cultural mixing programme. Perdikkas was vaguely the first among equals among the generals/bodyguards after Hephaestion died.
 
Last edited:
He would not for the simply reason who soldiers and political legacy were NOT included in the inheritance and Octavian was years away from a political career.
I don't agree. This isn't the early republic. By this time a man's soldiers are ALL de facto in his clientele. Without the politician-legislator-general's work, the soldiers are not guaranteed any kind of lands or pension. Even after retirement they may be quite loyal to him, witness thousands of Pompey's veterans in Spain who rose up against Caesar's government, or (decades earlier) Marius's veterans in Africa who rose against the Sullan governor Quintus Caecilius Metellus.
 

bguy

Donor
I don't agree. This isn't the early republic. By this time a man's soldiers are ALL de facto in his clientele. Without the politician-legislator-general's work, the soldiers are not guaranteed any kind of lands or pension. Even after retirement they may be quite loyal to him, witness thousands of Pompey's veterans in Spain who rose up against Caesar's government, or (decades earlier) Marius's veterans in Africa who rose against the Sullan governor Quintus Caecilius Metellus.

I don't know if that's as true for Caesar's veterans though. Certainly in 43-42 BC, Caesar's veterans from the Gallic Wars proved willing to serve under other Caesarian generals than Octavian. The Aludae Legion fought for Antonius at Mutina against Octavian, Publius Ventidius Bassus was able to raise three legions of Caesar's veterans (the VII, VIII, and IX) to fight for Antonius as well, and even Marcus Aemilius Lepidus was able to raise several legions of Caesar's veterans (the VI, X and possible the XII) to fight for him. Thus it doesn't seem like Octavian had any special claim on the loyalty of Caesar's veterans. (He only had two legions of Caesar's Gallic veterans serving him in 43-42 BC as opposed to the 6 or 7 veteran legions that sided with Antonius and Lepidus.)

And when you move beyond the Gallic War veterans (who were Caesar's most devoted troops) to the other Roman legions that had served under Caesar, they were even particularly loyal to any of the Caesarians. (The Gallic War veterans at least all committed to serving Caesarian commanders, but most of the legions that were stationed in the east ended up defecting to Brutus and Cassius and thus fighting against the Caesarians at Phillipi.)
 
Top