DH Mosquito, daylight bombing offensive?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

What about Typhoons or Tempests as escorts for the Mosquitoes?
Eventually sure, but I'm thinking about 1943. In 1944 thr Tempests were locked down V-1 hunting, while Typhoons were doing Fighter-bomber duty. Plus by then P-51s have murked the Luftwaffe anyway.
 
Eventually sure, but I'm thinking about 1943. In 1944 thr Tempests were locked down V-1 hunting, while Typhoons were doing Fighter-bomber duty. Plus by then P-51s have murked the Luftwaffe anyway.
Typhoons were the chosen escort for Jerichoe, Feb 1944.
 
Just looking at the SABS bombsight, only 1000 were delivered during the war and apart from a short sojourn with the PFF served only with 617 sqn until Tiger Force 9 and 44 sqn Lincolns were equipped with SABS, but too late for the Pacific war. This was the most accurate bombsight of the war with an average accuracy of 170 yards from 16,000' in mid 1944, decreasing to 125 yards by early 1945. The British also formed a pair of precision sqns using the Mk XIV sight which got 195 yards accuracy, better than the average of 270 yards of regular Mk XIV sqns and the Norden sight.

I think that this means that bombing by Mosquitos, using accuracy to make up for a lack of throw weight, isn't really a practical idea if it requires special hard to get sights or the sort of training that only exists on a special wing level. Another problem with scaling up Mosquito attacks is the issue of 'creepback' were successive aircraft drop their bombs shorter than the initial aircraft. While this can be mitigated against and even made use of to an extent with heavy bombers I think it would cripple a heavy Mosquito attack which doesn't have to bombs to spare on creepback and needs to put everything right on target.
 
What about Typhoons or Tempests as escorts for the Mosquitoes?

Depends on the date. Both Hawkers need increse of internal fuel tankage, to the tune of 200-250 imp gals, and Tempest is not available before 1944 anyway. Tempest's internal fuel grew from 132 imp gals (initial aircraft) to 162 imp gals (most of the production), and then addition of another 30 imp gal fuel tank in another wing leading edge was engineered by late 1944. Range, with 2x90 imp gal DTs, was supposed to be 1530 miles for 162 imp gal version, and 1790 miles for the 192 imp gal version; radius being perhaps 1/3rd of those values.
In case RAF really wants it, perhaps install an L-shaped fuel tank behind and under pilot on the Tempest? Or/and an comformal, self sealing tank under the fuselage, careful not to block exit from the cooling system? Conformal tank of 75 US gals was combat tested on the P-47 before it got increse of internal fuel tankage.
 
re: escorting the Mossies - are'nt there stories (possibly only anecdotal but i'm sure someone can pull up the performance figures) of P-51's not actually being able to keep up with Mosquitos on escort missions due to their need to run lean / slow to extend their range while the mossie happily cruised along 50or so mph faster??
 
Mosquito will also use the lean (weak) mixture when cruising towards distant targets/destinations. The USAF standard requirement in ETO for escort duties was cruise speed of around 310 mph (true speed) at 25000 ft, the P-51 with fuselage tank and 2x75 US gal DTs will achieve combat radius of 700 miles.
Problem is that RAF's Mustangs were without fuselage fuel tank, and in that case they will achieve combat radius of just 450 miles. Fine for Ruhr and similarly close targets, not enouh to cover all desired targets.

But then again - close escort was not as efficient as 'loose' escort, when a good part of the whole escort force was to engage LW defenders much before they reached bomber streams. Close escort gives away initiative to the defender, unlike the 'loose' escort.
 
How about a POD during the invasion panic of 1940. Britain stands alone against a hostile Europe and the Luftwaffe contains thousands of bombers. What the British need is a cheap to produce and operate bomber capable of being produced in large number that also wouldn't effect the building of fighters and the production of fighter pilots. Te British decide to prioritise the Mossie (nearing the end of its development at the time) at the expense of the of the heavies.

With the higher demand expected from 1940 training of production staff starts in late 1940 so when large scale production commences in late 1941 there's a large force of workers with the relevant skills. New factories intended for the heavies are converted for the production of the Mossie.

Further the stock piling of the required materials can start in 1940 reducing bottle necks later in production. Also with the indicated aim of mass production solutions can be sought to shortages of materials like balsa wood. In OTL some Mossies where produced in the Commonwealth. However could production have been increased if only components where produced then shipped to the UK for completion? Certainly ordering wooden components from the US furniture industry is a possibility.

With few or even no heavies the opportunity costs of the choosing to produce the Mosquito are many. Firstly the British get more planes than OTL, some used for the many roles the Mossie was famed for and the rest used for a massive and sustained bombing campaign. Secondly aircrew are high quality volunteers so a reduction from 7 in a Lancaster to 2 in a Mosquito would aid the war effort by being able to divert these men to other areas like the PBI. Further its often said that to keep a heavy flying took 57 men, I suspect it took far less for a Mosquito. Indeed the specially made airbases with long runways that were produced across Britain wouldn't be required in this scenario again saving considerable labour. Thirdly the work force who IOTL produced the heavies would be reallocated not only to the production of Mossies but to other aircraft types like, transport, ASW and fighter bombers, all of which were at least as useful as heavies and arguably more so.

By 1941 the Mozzie is operational
By 1942 available in reasonable numbers
By 1943 and on wards its raining destruction down on the Third Reich.

Lets for this scenario sate that by 1943 there are around 1500-2000 (and very few heavies). The Mosquito's are used for both day and night bombing. These raids are much smaller yet more frequent than Bomber Commands efforts OTL this has the benefit of forcing the Germans to spread there defences and means that many different types of target can get hit. OTL due to either bombing in large formations to either survive (US) or get enough bombs onto target due to issues of bombing by night (UK) they had to use larger formations so had prioritise target types. However with the fast Mosquito they don't need such big formations as it has the speed to survive at day and the accuracy to hit the target at night. I beleive this would bring the Nazi ability to produce war material to a crashing halt earlier than OTL. Reducing the war by months!
 
I think that this means that bombing by Mosquitos, using accuracy to make up for a lack of throw weight, isn't really a practical idea if it requires special hard to get sights or the sort of training that only exists on a special wing level. Another problem with scaling up Mosquito attacks is the issue of 'creepback' were successive aircraft drop their bombs shorter than the initial aircraft. While this can be mitigated against and even made use of to an extent with heavy bombers I think it would cripple a heavy Mosquito attack which doesn't have to bombs to spare on creepback and needs to put everything right on target.

Quite. The CEP numbers of 30 m or so are meaningless without context. CEP is dependent on raid size, since more bombs means more dust, more fighter/AAA interference and a greater sense of "there's so many of us that we don't need to aim properly, someone's bound to hit it, let's just drop and go home". A raid of 50 Mosquitos with "normal" crews has no chance of getting a sub-100 m CEP.

There very likely is a better mix of Mosquitos and heavies than was used in OTL - such as hitting the rebuilding on the Ruhr dams - but the Mosquito is not a panacea and precision bombing was very difficult. The problems of interception by specialised lightweight interceptors and target selection also remain.
 

Deleted member 1487

Just looking at the SABS bombsight, only 1000 were delivered during the war and apart from a short sojourn with the PFF served only with 617 sqn until Tiger Force 9 and 44 sqn Lincolns were equipped with SABS, but too late for the Pacific war. This was the most accurate bombsight of the war with an average accuracy of 170 yards from 16,000' in mid 1944, decreasing to 125 yards by early 1945. The British also formed a pair of precision sqns using the Mk XIV sight which got 195 yards accuracy, better than the average of 270 yards of regular Mk XIV sqns and the Norden sight.

I think that this means that bombing by Mosquitos, using accuracy to make up for a lack of throw weight, isn't really a practical idea if it requires special hard to get sights or the sort of training that only exists on a special wing level. Another problem with scaling up Mosquito attacks is the issue of 'creepback' were successive aircraft drop their bombs shorter than the initial aircraft. While this can be mitigated against and even made use of to an extent with heavy bombers I think it would cripple a heavy Mosquito attack which doesn't have to bombs to spare on creepback and needs to put everything right on target.
SABS wasn't necessary for their precision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_XIV_bomb_sight
It was around since 1939 and continuously improved getting and average similar to the SABS.

Creep back was actually something that really only impacted very large bomber raids, if you're using a few dozen Mossies that's not going to be a feature.
 

Deleted member 1487

How about a POD during the invasion panic of 1940. Britain stands alone against a hostile Europe and the Luftwaffe contains thousands of bombers. What the British need is a cheap to produce and operate bomber capable of being produced in large number that also wouldn't effect the building of fighters and the production of fighter pilots. Te British decide to prioritise the Mossie (nearing the end of its development at the time) at the expense of the of the heavies.

With the higher demand expected from 1940 training of production staff starts in late 1940 so when large scale production commences in late 1941 there's a large force of workers with the relevant skills. New factories intended for the heavies are converted for the production of the Mossie.

Further the stock piling of the required materials can start in 1940 reducing bottle necks later in production. Also with the indicated aim of mass production solutions can be sought to shortages of materials like balsa wood. In OTL some Mossies where produced in the Commonwealth. However could production have been increased if only components where produced then shipped to the UK for completion? Certainly ordering wooden components from the US furniture industry is a possibility.

With few or even no heavies the opportunity costs of the choosing to produce the Mosquito are many. Firstly the British get more planes than OTL, some used for the many roles the Mossie was famed for and the rest used for a massive and sustained bombing campaign. Secondly aircrew are high quality volunteers so a reduction from 7 in a Lancaster to 2 in a Mosquito would aid the war effort by being able to divert these men to other areas like the PBI. Further its often said that to keep a heavy flying took 57 men, I suspect it took far less for a Mosquito. Indeed the specially made airbases with long runways that were produced across Britain wouldn't be required in this scenario again saving considerable labour. Thirdly the work force who IOTL produced the heavies would be reallocated not only to the production of Mossies but to other aircraft types like, transport, ASW and fighter bombers, all of which were at least as useful as heavies and arguably more so.

By 1941 the Mozzie is operational
By 1942 available in reasonable numbers
By 1943 and on wards its raining destruction down on the Third Reich.

Lets for this scenario sate that by 1943 there are around 1500-2000 (and very few heavies). The Mosquito's are used for both day and night bombing. These raids are much smaller yet more frequent than Bomber Commands efforts OTL this has the benefit of forcing the Germans to spread there defences and means that many different types of target can get hit. OTL due to either bombing in large formations to either survive (US) or get enough bombs onto target due to issues of bombing by night (UK) they had to use larger formations so had prioritise target types. However with the fast Mosquito they don't need such big formations as it has the speed to survive at day and the accuracy to hit the target at night. I beleive this would bring the Nazi ability to produce war material to a crashing halt earlier than OTL. Reducing the war by months!
I don't think it's likely, but I like it. As you say without the focus on heavies there are more resources for Coastal Command to win the BotA in 1942.
 
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Balsa wood harvesting is a year behind delivery so that is a delay to build in. Also it is wild harvesting from scattered sites within dragable reach of a river to float them down to the ports. It is not like a factory or mineral product that can be mined faster or be open longer. Increasing supply means increasing the extraction of a limited resource whose easiest items are already being chosen. Now I don't know what other demand was for balsa wood and if that can cease and use alternatives. Also shipping it is a large volume item Whereas bauxite, even as ore, produces more product per cubic metre of shipping so there would be an impact upon shipping it to the UK from the far side of South America. Put simply, if you ship extra balsa wood something else does not get shipped and you have to do without that something. 1950s Ecuador was within the purview of my geography degree and I recall no reserve to greatly increase supply. Yes you could hire extra loggers and port workers but the logger would be inexperienced to find and cut down the trees without damaging them and prone to putting them in the river too early. Fresh balsa has little buoyancy. Dry balsa rots easily in a damp tropical environment so the transport is critical to avoid losses. I can't say that a large increase was not possible but I do have doubts that would need to be assuaged by someone who knows more than I.

A small point not mentioned is that the better survivability of Mosquito against heavies would leave more production in service and not in bits to be replaced. The same applies to the aircrew. Night bombing showed no real increase in survivability with experience but daylight bombing with Mosquitos did show some benefit so you would have more aeroplanes and crew surviving.

With a purely Mosquito force German industry would respond by moving east out of range, or at least where bomb loads would be exchanged for fuel. You would still need heavies to reach that far with a useful bomb load.

Another minor point is that Luftwaffe flak guns would have then to cope with high level bombers by day and night (large calibres) and low level bombers which are fast rate small calibre. Doing both would impact further upon German industry.
 

Deleted member 1487

With a purely Mosquito force German industry would respond by moving east out of range, or at least where bomb loads would be exchanged for fuel. You would still need heavies to reach that far with a useful bomb load.
That never really happened IOTL despite the massive bombing going on, underground factories weren't really an answer either. Plus the enormous disruption in production from shifting people and factories East, leaving the industrial Ruhr a ghost town, was not feasible given that the entire reason the Ruhr popped up is that was where the coal was. Plus then Mossies can start engaging in transport and oil facility destruction and collapse the German economy that way, while leaving France and Western Europe unsupportable by the Germans.

Another minor point is that Luftwaffe flak guns would have then to cope with high level bombers by day and night (large calibres) and low level bombers which are fast rate small calibre. Doing both would impact further upon German industry.
German FLAK was never a big killer of aircraft, far less for the most faster Mossies; they could hit big bombers, more than twice the size of a Mossie, but even then they weren't particularly good at it.
 

Deleted member 1487

As an aside would an jet engined metal version of the Mosquito have gotten the same performance?
 
Probably not. The early jet aircraft were tiny for twin engined A/C, and that helped with performance even on low thrust engines. The Mosquito's wing have had 50-80% greater wing area than eg. Meteor, 'Blitz' or Airacomet, and those were 'just' around 400 mph aircraft.
 
The Mosquito was made of wood laminate which helped save aluminium.

If we are building theminstead of (or at least instead of part of) the Lancaster force, why cant we make them in metal?
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They would be easier to track on radar ....
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Post WW2, the Argentine IAE 30 Nuncu fighter sort of fits your description. Nunca resembled an all aluminum version of Dehavilland's Sea Hornet and it achieved similar performance.

Back to wartime production methods: to achieve the same performance, a metal Mosquito would need the same attention to surface detail as North American Mustang and jet fighters because faster speeds require smoother skins to reduce parasitic drag and maintain laminar airflow farther aft. That requires flush rivets and carefully butted skin joints.
Precisely fitted skins would reduce water incursion. Water incursion was a problem with wooden Mosquitos because it increased empty weight and increased radar returns.

Speaking of radar returns ............ I wonder how much silver dope (containing powdered aluminum) contributed to radar signature. Most fabric-covered airplanes have a layer of aluminum dope or paint to reduce sunlight (UV) damage.

Balsa wood fillers (glued to aluminium skins) could still reduce weight and vastly reduce the numbers of rivets by reducing the number of internal stiffeners. for examples of balsa block internal stiffeners, see the experimental racer built by the DeHavilland Technical School TK 4 racer built in 1937.

Increasing the supply of balsa for airplanes means finding an alternative to balsa wood in the life-rafts carried by every ship. Deck space was not a big issue because many ships still carried full-size, wooden life boats. Forget about substituting rubber boats because rubber was too valuable for tires, hoses, etc.
 
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