Determined to Destroy Us - An Axis Victory Cold War TL

[Shogo]

Outside of flat out killing them, there were two basic ideas for preventing any groups from trying to recreate certain nations in the east.

One was scattering the conquered population. Spread them out over a wide enough area to prevent them from being able to form a cohesive group. Something like scattering the Poles across Russia to make it that much harder for any of them to try to recreate Poland.

The other was resurrecting old divisions in order to destroy the idea of a united <insert people here>.

Things like saying this group of Russians are Muscovites and this group is . . . I don't actually know very many names for what the Russian people called themselves before they unified. But the basic idea was still to shatter their unity and make any given group of Russians stop thinking of themselves as Russians, and think of any other group of Russians as some other thing that's still different from themselves.

Essentially, reintroduce tribalism so that they'll view each other with suspicion instead of cooperating against the Nazis.

And of course there will be all the problems that come from the fact that the only education any of the conquered peoples in the east would be receiving is basically nonexistent. Write their names, count, and "God decreed that you must serve the German people". That's basically it for them.

 

[EmperorKazooKid]

I was thinking of a way that the reich could collapse. Not just loosing it's puppet states, but truly collapsing. My only real idea is that after they lost their puppet states, the free French take power in France. And many former allied governments regain control of their nations. Meanwhile, a vengeful Soviet Union would see an opportunity with a weakened reich tottering on the verge of economic collapse from all the lost territory and a disenfranchised, war weary populace having fought in numerous wars to keep the Reich's allies loyal. Meanwhile, the new French government joins the rio pact and along with the U.K. and USA seizes mittleafrika. After this, the USSR throws out the SS agents monitoring their industrial production, and within a few years invades Germany (which still includes European Russia) and funds slave uprisings across Germany. In the German leadership, most of the old buracracy is replaced following the collapse of Germany's sphere of influence. A young inexperienced politician becomes fuhrer and decides not to use nukes In the war against Russia. After Russia declares war the Rio pact wants to also get a piece of the German pie and declares war, invading Germany via France. Italy, the Balkans and Central Europe are neutral as the have internal problems or are fighting amongst each other. Germany falls and a peace is signed. The Nazi government is deposed. Slavic slaves are returned to their homelands, the Low Countries and Scandinavia would be given independence as nations aligned to the rio pact. Germany would be left with borders roughly corresponding to modern Germany. Of course, the legacy of the Cold War would still exist and there would be many conflicts in the Balkans, where the Greeks might try to gain independence from Italy and there might be war between Serbia and Croatia. There might also be renewed conflict between "free" India and republican India. There also might be anti-fascist rebellions in South Africa. There also could be conflict between the slavs returning to their homeland and German settlers.

 

[Ozzymandias]

Interesting timeline !
Just found this couple a days ago and read it all through. It is reasonobly possible series of events, although I do have some minor objection (Japanese attacking USA without nuclear weapons and without attempt to start biological warfare). But what is really interesting is what happens next ?
Will Germany intervene in indian subcontinent ?
Will Space race and Moon race drain Reich economy ?
Will there be german support for arab indipendence from Turkey, Italy, France ?
Will there be German - Latin (Italian, Spanish, Portugal, French, Greek, Romanian) split similar to sino-russian one ?
What will happen to neighbouring puppet allies (Hungary, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Finland). Will they be annexed into Reich ?
Will there be a showdown between Wermacht in Germany proper against SS controlled Reichskommisariats in the East and Afrika ?
The main resistance can only come from organised group and the army is the only one left.
Who is left to lead civilian disent in Reich ? Maybe Church, Big bussines (Todt group), women equality movement ?

 

[not_an_original_name]

I was thinking of a way that the reich could collapse. Not just loosing it's puppet states, but truly collapsing. My only real idea is that after they lost their puppet states, the free French take power in France. And many former allied governments regain control of their nations. Meanwhile, a vengeful Soviet Union would see an opportunity with a weakened reich tottering on the verge of economic collapse from all the lost territory and a disenfranchised, war weary populace having fought in numerous wars to keep the Reich's allies loyal. Meanwhile, the new French government joins the rio pact and along with the U.K. and USA seizes mittleafrika. After this, the USSR throws out the SS agents monitoring their industrial production, and within a few years invades Germany (which still includes European Russia) and funds slave uprisings across Germany. In the German leadership, most of the old buracracy is replaced following the collapse of Germany's sphere of influence. A young inexperienced politician becomes fuhrer and decides not to use nukes In the war against Russia. After Russia declares war the Rio pact wants to also get a piece of the German pie and declares war, invading Germany via France. Italy, the Balkans and Central Europe are neutral as the have internal problems or are fighting amongst each other. Germany falls and a peace is signed. The Nazi government is deposed. Slavic slaves are returned to their homelands, the Low Countries and Scandinavia would be given independence as nations aligned to the rio pact. Germany would be left with borders roughly corresponding to modern Germany. Of course, the legacy of the Cold War would still exist and there would be many conflicts in the Balkans, where the Greeks might try to gain independence from Italy and there might be war between Serbia and Croatia. There might also be renewed conflict between "free" India and republican India. There also might be anti-fascist rebellions in South Africa. There also could be conflict between the slavs returning to their homeland and German settlers.

Scandinavia, the Low Countries, Poland, Russia (west of urals), and most other nations under direct german control have had their populations either mostly exterminated or germanized by that point, unfortunately.

 

[QueerSpear]

Scandinavia

Scandinavians are Aryans.

 

[Zagan]

Scandinavians are Aryans.

Do you believe "Aryan" to be a valid racial/ethnic category??

 

[not_an_original_name]

Scandinavians are Aryans.

True (going by the nazi definition), but they were still partially-independent states before they were completely taken over in the late 1950s. It's likely the Nazis would quash any future existing independence movements in Scandinavia, meaning that they probably stay part of Greater Germany after the Nazi collapse.

 

[varyar]

Do you believe "Aryan" to be a valid racial/ethnic category??

The Nazis did, and that's what matters as far as TTL goes.

 

[QueerSpear]

Do you believe "Aryan" to be a valid racial/ethnic category??

The Nazis did- it was part of the national mythology of the NSDAP regime.

 

[Zagan]

The Nazis did, and that's what matters as far as TTL goes.

The Nazis did- it was part of the national mythology of the NSDAP regime.

Ok. Got it.

 

[sloreck]

Experience shows that immigrants will tend to lose their native language by the third generation at the latest unless you have a very tight localized community and an effort to teach the mother tongue even if it is not used as the first language at home. Here from the minute the Germans occupied a country, German has become a more or less mandatory language to learn by everyone, and certainly introduced in the school curriculum at an early age. For those populations selected for Germanization, German becomes the only language of instruction in the schools and mandatory for any official communications, store signs, menus, etc very quickly. The native language is actively suppressed except as a selected academic exercise. Assuming that some of this starts during the war, and Germanization in the early 50s, by the 1970s for all intents and purposes anyone born after 1945 or so will have grown up with all their schooling in German, the vast majority of all business interactions in German (less in very rural areas), and may very well use German as a first language at home once they leave their parents home. Those born between 1935 and 1945 are more comfortable using their mother tongue, but still have had all secondary education and beyond in German, and perhaps some elementary education in German. Furthermore they have been taught German (not Norwegian or Dutch) poetry and literature, German/German slanted history, and so forth.

What this means is that those 35 and under have, by 1970, become thoroughly acculturated as Germans/Aryans and indoctrinated in Nazi ideology. I would assume that the young men have done military service, and very likely mixed in with Germans from old Germany in many units, further acculturating them.

It is important to remember that the acculturation/Germanization here will not be the relatively soft acculturation that occurs with immigrants to the USA (or UK, etc). This will be an aggressive effort from birth to ensure these people see themselves as Aryans/Germans not Danes or Dutch etc, and to reduce the previous national identity and cultural heritage to the background when it is not entirely expunged. As every year goes by a larger percentage of the population has never been anything other than "German" linguistically and culturally. They will have no connection to any government in exile, or any royals who left to fight Germany. Of course there will be those who resist this, or who are discontented but they will be a very small minority and speaking out or anti-Reich organizing will not end well for those involved.

 

[Redcoat]

Experience shows that immigrants will tend to lose their native language by the third generation at the latest unless you have a very tight localized community and an effort to teach the mother tongue even if it is not used as the first language at home. Here from the minute the Germans occupied a country, German has become a more or less mandatory language to learn by everyone, and certainly introduced in the school curriculum at an early age. For those populations selected for Germanization, German becomes the only language of instruction in the schools and mandatory for any official communications, store signs, menus, etc very quickly. The native language is actively suppressed except as a selected academic exercise. Assuming that some of this starts during the war, and Germanization in the early 50s, by the 1970s for all intents and purposes anyone born after 1945 or so will have grown up with all their schooling in German, the vast majority of all business interactions in German (less in very rural areas), and may very well use German as a first language at home once they leave their parents home. Those born between 1935 and 1945 are more comfortable using their mother tongue, but still have had all secondary education and beyond in German, and perhaps some elementary education in German. Furthermore they have been taught German (not Norwegian or Dutch) poetry and literature, German/German slanted history, and so forth.

What this means is that those 35 and under have, by 1970, become thoroughly acculturated as Germans/Aryans and indoctrinated in Nazi ideology. I would assume that the young men have done military service, and very likely mixed in with Germans from old Germany in many units, further acculturating them.

It is important to remember that the acculturation/Germanization here will not be the relatively soft acculturation that occurs with immigrants to the USA (or UK, etc). This will be an aggressive effort from birth to ensure these people see themselves as Aryans/Germans not Danes or Dutch etc, and to reduce the previous national identity and cultural heritage to the background when it is not entirely expunged. As every year goes by a larger percentage of the population has never been anything other than "German" linguistically and culturally. They will have no connection to any government in exile, or any royals who left to fight Germany. Of course there will be those who resist this, or who are discontented but they will be a very small minority and speaking out or anti-Reich organizing will not end well for those involved.

This is fucking depressing. Either way, the Nazis will win spiritually!

 

[John Dusk]

This is fucking depressing. Either way, the Nazis will win spiritually!

In a world where the Nazis won and managed to kill/enslave/indoctrinate an entire continent for decades, happy endings will be rare.

 

[EmperorKazooKid]

Scandinavia, the Low Countries, Poland, Russia (west of urals), and most other nations under direct german control have had their populations either mostly exterminated or germanized by that point, unfortunately.

For European Russia, there is a large population of Russians in the rump USSR to repopulate European Russia. As for the rest of the Slavic nations, there were both slave populations and populations of Slavs living in non-Nazi aligned countries that might be encouraged to immigrate. Though, with the exceptions of (possibly) the Walloons, I'm afraid your right about Scandinavia and the Low Countries.

 

[sloreck]

The number of Slavs in Nazi occupied countries will be relatively small, and they are almost without exception marginally literate/numerate and only speaking German, and are slaves. Don't forget that much of Poland and occupied Russia will have a German/Aryan population, denser as you get closer to pre-1939 Germany. To the extent there is some of Russia west of the Urals that is still pretty empty that could be occupied, but frankly once there is any density no way - worst comes to worst the Germans kill the slaves and scorched earth as they go west a bit. The rump USSr, in any case, simply won't have the military power to push Germany out of occupied lands after 30+ years.

As far as Slavs in other countries, those in non-Axis allies are, by now, thoroughly British, Canadian, American etc. and very few will want to try to go back and reclaim Poland or the Ukraine. Those in Axis allied countries like Hungary, Romania, etc who were originally Polish or Russian will be very second class citizens there and/or forcibly acculturated to be Hungarian or whatever. I just can't see any way that even a "reformed" Germany gives up much territory especially since the locals will consider themselves German and want to stay in the Reich. By the time the Reich might have an internal crisis, and IMHO would be much later than the 1970s, the only way it is broken up is by invading armies doing it and with all the nukes not happening.

 

[Redcoat]

Weird. I barely shed a tear when I had read, What Madness Is this, with a 1984-esque America which basically forces Slavs and Catholics into ghettoes, a psychopathic JFK, and nuclear war enveloping the whole ...world at the end...Yet this...Damn Nazis.

 

[demonman24]

Given the extremely weakened state of the USSR due to their shaky government and loss of virtually all productive land, I'm very surprised Mongolia remains in their sphere of influence, especially considering China's rising power. Is it possible that China could wrest Mongolia away and make them their puppet, if not outright annex them, in the near future?

 

[John Dusk]

By the time the Reich might have an internal crisis, and IMHO would be much later than the 1970s

How later?

 

[sloreck]

IMHO with the majority of what would be considered industrialized Europe under its control, agricultural areas enough for sufficiency, and decent natural resources all in the Grossdeutschesreich and the independent countries of Central/Eastern Europe in its trading orbit Nazi Germany has a lot going for it. Additionally, while its economy has a lot of inefficiencies, in a peacetime/cold war (as opposed to hot war) environment it will do a good deal better than the Soviet Union which had to recover from massive population loss and devastation after WWII, inherited satellites that were not very industrially advanced to begin with and had been pretty trashed by war, and had a much more dysfunctional economy. In spite of all that the Soviet Union lasted until 1989. I would expect the Nazis, given their better starting point to last at least that long. Not an endorsement of any of their policies, but just a relatively dispassionate endorsement of the situation.

 

[Bookmark1995]

IMHO with the majority of what would be considered industrialized Europe under its control, agricultural areas enough for sufficiency, and decent natural resources all in the Grossdeutschesreich and the independent countries of Central/Eastern Europe in its trading orbit Nazi Germany has a lot going for it. Additionally, while its economy has a lot of inefficiencies, in a peacetime/cold war (as opposed to hot war) environment it will do a good deal better than the Soviet Union which had to recover from massive population loss and devastation after WWII, inherited satellites that were not very industrially advanced to begin with and had been pretty trashed by war, and had a much more dysfunctional economy. In spite of all that the Soviet Union lasted until 1989. I would expect the Nazis, given their better starting point to last at least that long. Not an endorsement of any of their policies, but just a relatively dispassionate endorsement of the situation.

You're right: they have a shit of ton of resources and didn't suffer the horrific devastation of 44-45.

But it is important to remember that a lot of their successes, OTL and ITTL, were the result of luck on their part and general incompetence on the part of their opponents.

It is dispassionate to say underneath of image of Germanic Efficiency, the Nazi Reich was a cesspool of corruption and infighting. And since these people have a case of victory disease rivaling that of OTL America, they will probably not feel the need to reform. This will probably be their undoing.