Determined to Destroy Us - An Axis Victory Cold War TL
- Thread starter SirPaperweight
- Start date
Wait, unless I'm missing something (entirely possible considering I'm new at this), the Dixiecrats existed because of their opposition to civil rights, not because of the war?
Ratmancampidori
Banned
I'm assuming Truman still runs on desegregating the armed forces and establishing a civil rights committee. This causes the Dixiecrat's to split from the Democratic party and run Thurmond instead.
The sentiments that brought about the Dixiecrats were pretty much a direct result of the War. Millions of men from outside the South rotated through the area with Jim Crow laws. Hundreds of thousands of African Americans rotated through the ETO or New Zealand/Australia, where they were exposed to an entire world without Jim Crow, with millions more venturing out of Deep South to the Northeast, Midwest and West Coast to work in War Plants. The result was a major jump in opposition to Jim Crow among the U.S. and a good deal most "restlessness" among the Blacks of the South.
The War didn't create the Civil Rights Movement, but it took it from an afterthought to a serious issue. That was what generated the flat out fear driving the Dixiecrats. No War, no fear, no Dixiecrats.
The USSR continued with the medium tank paradigm to come up with the T-72. ITTL, Nazi Germany will continue with the heavy tank concept. They will have a modern day King Tiger. Awesome as that sounds. When the M1A1 comes around I expect they will have something as formidable but not as economical as the T-72.
Cant wait for more details about Japan and Africa. Edit. O doubt Germany would have either the standing army or reserves to properly occupy every place like if the U.K. is occupied which means the US will likely take many of these places through invasion wherever hostilities were to break out.
Cant wait for more details about Japan and Africa. Edit. O doubt Germany would have either the standing army or reserves to properly occupy every place like if the U.K. is occupied which means the US will likely take many of these places through invasion wherever hostilities were to break out.
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Ratmancampidori
Banned
I'm curious on where these proxy wars are going to take place. If Japan and Germany remain allied then I could see proxy wars breaking out in multiple areas.
Some possible locations could be Iran, Arabia and Algeria against Germany and China and perhaps even Bangladesh against Japan.
I'm curious on what impact an Axis Cold War could have on Indian Partition. In Calbear's story partition never occurs, which is really just asking for civil war to break out.
Could one of the proxy wars be the Axis and Allies using opposing sides in an Indian Civil War as proxies? I can't think who exactly the Axis would support however.
Some possible locations could be Iran, Arabia and Algeria against Germany and China and perhaps even Bangladesh against Japan.
I'm curious on what impact an Axis Cold War could have on Indian Partition. In Calbear's story partition never occurs, which is really just asking for civil war to break out.
Could one of the proxy wars be the Axis and Allies using opposing sides in an Indian Civil War as proxies? I can't think who exactly the Axis would support however.
I see. I'll update chapter II without Thurmond and catalyze the Civil Rights Movements some other way.
Just a suggestion, this fellow could rise to more prominence and lead the US space program without Von Braun and his fellow German scientists around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen
Also regarding the start of a Nazi space program, if they're determined to be first in the early half of the fifties they could launch a fellow up into space in a modified V2 which Stalin considered in OTL.
https://falsesteps.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/vr-190-stalins-rocket/
Heres also what could be a Nazi equivalent of U2 spy plane. The designer Eugen Sänger was poised to be a rival to Von Braun.
https://falsesteps.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/sanger-bredt-silbervogel/
Another devious plane project that the US would have to prepare against.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber
Aeronautics could also go in some pretty strange directions ITTL.
Without US involvement in the war a lot runways may have not been built so seaplanes would still be more common for a while longer.
Also I wouldn't put it past people ITTL putting more nuclear into things, like planes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen
Also regarding the start of a Nazi space program, if they're determined to be first in the early half of the fifties they could launch a fellow up into space in a modified V2 which Stalin considered in OTL.
https://falsesteps.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/vr-190-stalins-rocket/
Heres also what could be a Nazi equivalent of U2 spy plane. The designer Eugen Sänger was poised to be a rival to Von Braun.
https://falsesteps.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/sanger-bredt-silbervogel/
Another devious plane project that the US would have to prepare against.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber
Aeronautics could also go in some pretty strange directions ITTL.
Without US involvement in the war a lot runways may have not been built so seaplanes would still be more common for a while longer.
Also I wouldn't put it past people ITTL putting more nuclear into things, like planes.
bguy
Donor
Isn't some sort of "Brown Scare" likely in a Nazis Victorious timeline? That could create a lot of hostility to the Jim Crow laws and make civil rights a much more prominent issue in American politics as Americans don't want their country looking like Nazi Germany. (It's certainly easy to imagine Hubert Humphrey delivering a stemwinder at the 1948 Democratic convention where he compares Jim Crow to the Nuremberg laws.)
That'll come eventually. But be warned; I know precious little about British politics.
Thanks! Glad y'all are enjoying it!
Thanks for the input, I'll certainly look at the links as I approach the topic of the Space Race. Should be worth noting, though, that nuclear-powered planes became obsolete once the ICBM came around. The range of nuclear planes just didn't justify their expense, and ICBMs didn't put human crew at risk.
There's definitely going to be a reaction to Germany's genocidal tendencies (just like America's right-wing turn as a reaction to the USSR's leftism OTL), but it's going to take more than that to get the ball rolling on civil rights. It'll happen for a few reasons, but I can't give them away just yet.
Will there be a chapter discussing the German colonization/genocide in Eastern Europe?
Possible? Sure.
Likely? Not so much. A victorious Reich would result in the Camps remaining more rumor than fact for some time. IOTL the British, when presented with reports that detailed the Camps in Poland, made annotations on the reports that they seemed to be exaggerated. None of those reports reached Britain until 1942. In this scenario it is reasonable to assume that the UK was defeated before the initial reporting could be received, and even if it was received the U.S. and UK were not sharing Intel at the level that was true IOTL. This, combined with the reality that the U.S. had virtually no HUMINT coverage anywhere on the Continent, makes the wide distribution of information on the Holocaust while it is still underway much less likely than IOTL.
bguy
Donor
Would victorious Nazis even bother to try and hide the Holocaust? (It's not like Hitler, Himmler, and Heydrich would feel any sense of shame in what they were doing.) And even if the Nazis did decide to keep the Holocaust quiet, the Nuremberg Race Laws and Kristallnacht were certainly known to the United States. The American people were well aware that Nazi Germany was a virulently racist regime, which is going to make Jim Crow deeply embarrassing to any Americans that doesn't want his country looking like Nazi Germany.
Also, even aside from the moral case for civil rights, there is also a geopolitical argument. The U.S. government in any Cold War situation with victorious Axis Powers is probably going to have to compete with the Nazis for influence in the Mid-East and with Japan for influence in India. Jim Crow makes the U.S. look little better than Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan and thus greatly damages the U.S. bargaining position with the Mid-East nations and India.
The Nazi leadership would admit that the Final Solution is complete and the Germanization of the East underway but I don't think they would discuss it in detail like:
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That's making the assumption that the Middle East or India in this period care about the plight of African-Americans. There'll be some sympathy in India, sure. But not in the Middle East.
Chapter III: The Road to Cold War
Chapter III: The Road to Cold War
Adolf Hitler was curious about the incoming American president. He worried that a more assertive American foreign policy could drag the world into yet another Great War, threatening the entire Third Reich's existence in the process. He felt that he had to "size up" the new president. To do this, he invited him to a conference in Baghdad, the stated goal being to settle remaining land disputes in the Atlantic and to establish the status of post-colonial Indonesia. In reality, though, Hitler wanted to test the new administration to see if this "new foreign policy" was not just bluster. Thomas Dewey accepted, and arrived alongside Secretary of State John Foster Dulles on October 24, 1949. Hitler showed up with Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, partial namesake of the infamous non-aggression pact between Germany and the USSR.
The German delegation was surprised by the change of tone from the United States. They expected the Americans to be, as usual, somewhat reluctant in dealing with other nations; instead, they took a firm and active stance in defending their interests abroad. Dewey was indeed bringing the US out of isolation, much to Hitler's chagrin. Germany agreed to recognize the British annexation of Iceland, Greenland, Svalbard and the Faeroe and Shetland Islands, all of which were occupied during or after the Second Great War and were not returned to their now-Axis-dominated former owners. In return, the United States promised to recognize the State of Indonesia, the Axis-aligned government that took over Indonesia after the Second Great War. Additionally, the United States reaffirmed the Monroe Doctrine, warning that any fascist meddling in the Americas would be treated as an act of war.
Both parties left the negotiations satisfied, but nonetheless the Baghdad Conference represented a turning point in German-American relations. Both nations now saw each other as rivals competing for dominance over the world. For the American leadership, this became painfully evident when in February 1950 Ambassador to Germany John McCloy wrote a telegram titled "The Worldview and Intentions of the German Reich" and sent it to Washington. He later published it in Foreign Affairs magazine under the pseudonym "Mr. King." In the article, popularly known as the "King Telegram," he outlined his views and opinions of the Nazis. The concepts he proposed became the foundation of US Cold War policy:
John J. McCloy, US Ambassador to Germany
The US took McCloy's words as the bedrock of its new foreign policy. With the King Telegram as a guide to the Nazi worldview, Washington constructed a roadmap for the Cold War. Over time, the two superpowers across the Atlantic would grow to hate each other with vicious passion, stockpiling weapons in a desperate race to outdo each other. It became increasingly clear that while the war was over, the peace was not yet won.
Adolf Hitler was curious about the incoming American president. He worried that a more assertive American foreign policy could drag the world into yet another Great War, threatening the entire Third Reich's existence in the process. He felt that he had to "size up" the new president. To do this, he invited him to a conference in Baghdad, the stated goal being to settle remaining land disputes in the Atlantic and to establish the status of post-colonial Indonesia. In reality, though, Hitler wanted to test the new administration to see if this "new foreign policy" was not just bluster. Thomas Dewey accepted, and arrived alongside Secretary of State John Foster Dulles on October 24, 1949. Hitler showed up with Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, partial namesake of the infamous non-aggression pact between Germany and the USSR.
The German delegation was surprised by the change of tone from the United States. They expected the Americans to be, as usual, somewhat reluctant in dealing with other nations; instead, they took a firm and active stance in defending their interests abroad. Dewey was indeed bringing the US out of isolation, much to Hitler's chagrin. Germany agreed to recognize the British annexation of Iceland, Greenland, Svalbard and the Faeroe and Shetland Islands, all of which were occupied during or after the Second Great War and were not returned to their now-Axis-dominated former owners. In return, the United States promised to recognize the State of Indonesia, the Axis-aligned government that took over Indonesia after the Second Great War. Additionally, the United States reaffirmed the Monroe Doctrine, warning that any fascist meddling in the Americas would be treated as an act of war.
Both parties left the negotiations satisfied, but nonetheless the Baghdad Conference represented a turning point in German-American relations. Both nations now saw each other as rivals competing for dominance over the world. For the American leadership, this became painfully evident when in February 1950 Ambassador to Germany John McCloy wrote a telegram titled "The Worldview and Intentions of the German Reich" and sent it to Washington. He later published it in Foreign Affairs magazine under the pseudonym "Mr. King." In the article, popularly known as the "King Telegram," he outlined his views and opinions of the Nazis. The concepts he proposed became the foundation of US Cold War policy:
- The Third Reich saw itself as the guardian of Aryan racial purity against forces such as Judaism, communism, democracy, capitalism, etc.
- The Third Reich always viewed its negotiations with other countries in terms of race. Whether or not a country was racially "pure" and Aryan determined how Nazi Germany would negotiate with its leaders.
- The Third Reich viewed itself in a constant race war with "inferior" groups such as Jews or Slavs.
- Nazi aggression was rooted in pan-German nationalism and racial hatred.
- The Third Reich would manipulate racial hatred in the peoples of the free world in order to gain controllable allies.
- The Third Reich would tout fascism as a means of national strength with the goal of gaining allies in the Third World.
- The Third Reich viewed Americans as a people polluted by Jews and "negroes," subservient to international capitalism.
- The foundations of Nazi ideology inhibited objective analysis of reality, and the Third Reich's views were ultimately not defined by logic and reason.
John J. McCloy, US Ambassador to Germany
The US took McCloy's words as the bedrock of its new foreign policy. With the King Telegram as a guide to the Nazi worldview, Washington constructed a roadmap for the Cold War. Over time, the two superpowers across the Atlantic would grow to hate each other with vicious passion, stockpiling weapons in a desperate race to outdo each other. It became increasingly clear that while the war was over, the peace was not yet won.
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Bookmark1995
Banned
The Baby Boomers came of age in a time of peace and prosperity, and they became a generation that challenged the establishment.
Whether or not young Germans revolt against the Nazi state will depend on how many pointless wars they get thrown into. Apparently, there will be a lot of wars to create a generation of disillusioned young people.
Bookmark1995
Banned
This is a very interesting story. I hope you continue.
So what is the status of Israel?
So what is the status of Israel?
Oh this is going to get worse before it gets better.
Dewey would be wise to use the King Telegram as an impetus to push for extensive civil rights legislation (assuming the GOP controls congress after the sweeping victory in 1948).
Japan will most likely distance itself from the Reich due to proximity to the US.
Dewey would be wise to use the King Telegram as an impetus to push for extensive civil rights legislation (assuming the GOP controls congress after the sweeping victory in 1948).
Japan will most likely distance itself from the Reich due to proximity to the US.