Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL

ASDIC contact dead
Was ASDIC not very secret.....was it exported to anybody apart from France and then only just pre war?

(MN ordered16 set of ASDIC 123 on 10 may 39, first delivery end of August?)
 
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Might even hold off the Kriegsmarine long enough for the Royal Navy to sweep up the rest.
The problem is mobilization level?

The KM (assuming they try like OTL?) will be coming pre declaration of war/under a false flag until they are challenged, I dont think you can really hope to fully stop them landing its just if they cant get hold of a port/airport and therefore plans fall apart and the force get defeated with GB/Fr help within a couple of days?

I dont think the navy helps much apart from maybe a DD out in the wrong place that challenges the invasion force offshore and dies therefore allowing coastal defence/army to fire before they land?

Unless they have a very high readiness status or better spy's I cant think many of the ships/aircraft will actually be ready and out at sea to fight the first wave? But as the first wave was not huge and the army has been improved they might well stop them and allow the ships/aircraft to prevent reinforcements to ensure victory?

Its then a matter of can the Skagerrak hold like the channel or will the Germans go via Sweden? Or maybe we just get S&G and the rest of the KM being hurt more with Norway still falling? Anyway looking forward to it!
 
I dont think the navy helps much apart from maybe a DD out in the wrong place that challenges the invasion force offshore and dies therefore allowing coastal defence/army to fire before they land?
It depends on if the minelayers have minefields and if MTB's are ordered to attack ships in the fjord. The DD's are more for providing seagoing ships to protect neutrality and try and limit German subs sinking Norwegian vessels. Plans call for a good number of patrol ships in the entrances for fjords, so hopefully they will be there. Don't forget, the six DD's all mount 8 53.3cm/21" torpedoes, which are known to invite water into ships
Well at least Norway will be more than a door stop if the Nazi's invade.
If the Nazi's invade, and if they decide to fire on the ships that say they're British
The problem is mobilization level?
True
Unless they have a very high readiness status or better spy's I cant think many of the ships/aircraft will actually be ready and out at sea to fight the first wave
There were warning signs OTL
 
The problem is mobilization level?

The KM (assuming they try like OTL?) will be coming pre declaration of war/under a false flag until they are challenged, I dont think you can really hope to fully stop them landing its just if they cant get hold of a port/airport and therefore plans fall apart and the force get defeated with GB/Fr help within a couple of days?

Seeing as the Norwegian Govt and military in this Timeline has A. A functioning brain that isn't filled with thoughts that the nice Mr Hitler won't bother them despite all the other stuff he's doing, and B. A spine to back that up. Perhaps when the Germans make their lunge into Poland and France and the UK declare war, the Norwegian Government takes steps, if not a full mobilisation, but at least a partial one to ensure that the coast defences are manned and the navy's out ensuring the sanctity of Norwegian waters. This could even go up a notch if a U-boat torpedoes and sinks a Norwegian Merchant ship, In OTL, prior to the invasion of Norway, the Norwegians lost 58 merchant ships to U-Boat attack.

This might even shake the most woolly headed peacenick out of the dumb assertion that the Nasty Mr Hitler was actually NASTY and Norway was in danger, and calls from the Government could help ensure that the defences are better manned than they were OTL. A full mobilisation would be seen as provocative and probably be too much to ask for, but at least ensuring that things like mines are moved to the ports ready to be loaded onto ships, and that the coast defences are not at 25% manning or lower but closer to 75% or even 100% would be a serous change.

Another simple change. If a Merchant ship from a nation currently at war wants to come into a Norweigian port, the navy can carry out an inspection of the ship and its cargo to ensure its not carrying any war materials which would be fine under their neutrality laws. So if a German merchant ship that is full of young, very fit, curiously beardless sailors starts getting nervous, you've got a ship nearby with guns so when your boarding party goes down below if they find anything and shooting starts, then there's bigger guns a few hundred yards away.

And if not, its good training! But this would stop the Germans pre-deploying troops in Norweigian ports dead. Especially if the Norweigians said they were doing it from day one, much appologies for the delays to your shipping etc but we are ensuring our neutrality and security during these troubled times and all that.

Also there's the matter of Quisling, I was reading up on this odeous creature earlier, i'd assume he's not been a member of the Ministry of Defence ITTL and at best is regarded as a crank and opportunist, not someone of import.
 
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Driftless

Donor
There were warning signs OTL

There's pretty solid evidence that Abwer sources leaked information about Operation Weserubung to both the Vatican and Maj. Gisjbertus Sas (the Dutch Military Attache) in Berlin - four days before the invasion. They, in turn, were to forward that info on to the Danes, Norwegians, British, and Dutch governments. Sas' contact with the Norwegian Embassy in Berlin, Ulrich Stang disbelieved the information and did not relay it back up stream to Norway.

*edit* The Swedes had also warned the Norwegians prior to invasion of all of the troop loading activity in Stettin and other ports

(an expanded account of this set of transations in "Hitler's Preemptive War" by Col. Henrik Lunde - US Army ret - pg87+)
 
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Chapter XV
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Chapter XV: Another Vote

25 April, 1938-2 May, 1938

The debate in the first reading of the Neutrality Bill mirrored the recruiting attempts of the MP’s. Germany wouldn’t invade Norway, and the armed forces already had plenty of money vs. Germany was becoming expansionist and Norway needed to make sure it could continue to protect its neutrality. Voices were raised, and the atmosphere during the vote was heated.

The vote after 50 votes was 20-30 against the bill. After 100, it was 42-48. After every single member had voted, the bill was passed, 76-74. At least three days later, it had to be passed a second time to go to King Haakvon VII and the Prime Minister. Johan slept well that night after the busy day. He would have to work very hard to make sure that the votes to pass the bill were there in the second hearing. Before he retired, he wrote a now famous letter to Churchill, detailing just how frustrated he was with the people who thought that Hitler wasn’t a threat. Perhaps his most famous quote is this: “If we aren’t willing to take steps to protect our Democracy, we nullify it by inviting those who don’t believe in it to destroy it!” He would use a very similar line in the debate during the second reading on 2 May, 1938.

On Monday, 2 May, 1938, a debate exceeding the first in both loudness of voices and heatedness of arguments took place, and it was clear that the bill was now a Partisan bill, with Labour against and Conservative for it. Though the Conservative Party held a slight edge over the Labour Party in terms of seats, the vote had a 50-50 chance. Johan Nilsen lost his voice less than an hour into the debate. Many MP’s abstained. Only 95 voted this time. The bill passed, 48-47. However, it was clear that, without further provocative moves from Germany, passing any further rearmament bill would be extremely difficult, something that Johan recognized for the time being. The additions to the military would be:

Two submarines would be built in Horten shipyard. Based off the Estonian Kalev class, they were to have four 53.3cm torpedo tubes, 20 mines, and a Bofors 4cm L/60 gun. The subs would be laid down in July, 1938, and completed in March, 1940. They would be named D1 and D2.

The fishery protection vessel Fridtjof Nansen would have a 4cm L/60 gun mounted for anti-aircraft defense. She would be fitted with storage and rails for 60 mines, and would land her seaplane and two 3-pounders.

The two Nordkapp class would have a pair of 12.7mm machine guns fitted for AA, but instead of minelaying gear, these small vessels would retain their sweeps.

The fortresses in Oslo, Bergen, Stavanger, Narvik, Trondheim, and Kristiansand would each receive a battery of two 4cm L/60 guns to improve their AA capabilities.

Four minesweepers, the lead ship to be named Otra, would be completed by February of 1940. Armed with two 4cm AA guns and capable of just 13.5 knots, they wouldn’t be of much value in a ship to ship battle, but could shoot back at aircraft and effectively sweep mines, as well as being relatively cheap.

The freighter Navarra, completed in 1921, was requisitioned and fitted to carry four MTB’s, as Snar was also doing. With 40(soon to be 48) MTB’s, it was felt that another carrier would be needed to carry the fragile boats from fjord to fjord. The ship was armed with a high-angle 3-pounder on the bow and stern.

The merchantmen Start and Kvernaas were requisitioned and fitted with minelaying equipment, a low-angle 6-pounder, and two 12.7mm machine guns. They could both carry up to 60 mines.

The 8 new MTB’s each displaced 60 tons, three times as much as the old MTB’s, and their capabilities showed it. Each was armed with a 2cm Oerlikon and four 45cm torpedo tubes, plus six full sized depth charges. These boats were much more seaworthy than the older vessels, and faster. Rumors have it that Norway’s intelligence services obtained plans for German S-Boats, and these new vessels were based on them, but no conclusive evidence has confirmed the story.

The army was given the funding to add two new regiments to its order of battle, so it wouldn’t be spread thinly throughout Norway.

The purchase of two squadrons of modern fighters by the Royal Norwegian Army Air Service took a bit. The Hawker Hurricane, Curtiss Hawk 75, and Fokker D.XXI were all world class fighters, and it took a bit to decide which aircraft type to purchase. The Hawk 75, armed with two machine guns, was thought to not have enough firepower, while the Hurricane, though well armed and probably the highest performing aircraft, would take longer due to the British buying most of them. The D.XXI was underpowered. An idea was proposed to fit Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp engines from America into the D.XX1 airframe, which would be shipped from the Netherlands in crates and mated with the engines at the Royal Norwegian Army Air Service factory in Kjeller. This would standardize engines with the Royal Norwegian Navy Air Service’s floatplanes, which also used the Twin Wasp engine. The plan was adopted, and an agreement reached with Fokker and Pratt & Whitney. All 24 fighters were expected to be fully operational in July, 1940, though the first squadron would probably be ready in mid-March.

This was the scope of the expansion of the Norwegian Armed Forces prior to the Second World War, which began on 1 September, 1939, when Germany, which had annexed the Sudetenland and later Czechoslovakia in late 1938 and early 1939, respectively, invaded Poland. The British and French finally decided enough was enough, and declared war on Germany two days later. Norway began a policy of Armed Neutrality, hoping to stay out of this war, just as it had two decades before.
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Well our man Johan is going to be very popular when the Nazi's break that neutrality. He and the conservatives will be remembered as the men who acted to defend Norway's sovereignty. Even if they get kicked out of Norway like in OTL, their political careers aren't going to be tarnished like the labour party, harping on about how Hitler wouldn't invade. No one in Norway is going to vote for Labour for a while once they defeat the Nazis.
 
Chapter IX will be a more detailed overview of the ships ordered, and will answer a good few of you guys' questions.

The torpedo bombers will likely be seaplanes, I'm currently thinking a Swordfish on floats or the N-3PB, which seems to get a lot of love on this forum, as for the recon aircraft, I'm leaning towards something along the lines of a Fairey IIIF, but obviously a newer design. I'll post more on the aircraft and coastal artillery specifics in the next few chapters.

One of the larger justifications for the bill was to create jobs in Norway, so the MTB's will be locally built, and will be more along the lines of some of the late 30's MAS boats.

If you guys want to figure something out, I can use it for the basis of an Army chapter. Thanks!

From my research, she carried a Moth as her seaplane, but was capable of supporting 10 land based seaplanes. The moth was stored behind the superstructure, and other seaplanes could be hoisted onto her deck aft, which has more space. That's why, to me, she seems a somewhat inexpensive way to have a mobile seaplane base without building a huge ship. Loki will be able to support 12 seaplanes(1 squadron), so she'll be a little bigger, and with different weapons, but still bears a large resemblance to Zmaj.
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I'd say also either acquire now or prepare to acquire a number of relatively modern existing small to medium sized freighters or tankers and outfit them as seaplane/ Torpedo boat tenders. Outfit them with at least some of the needed relevent machinery and facilities. They wouldnt really be for outright launching aircraft themselves but for acting as cheapish mobile bases travelling from Fjord to Fjord supporting air and naval forces. In peacetime they could theoretically support a seaplane based airmail system or help provide scouting aircraft for Norways fishing and whaling fleets.

If there isnt the money for that then prepare in peacetime to be able to rapidly convert several small to medium sized ships in the event of war. Namely prepare some spare machinery and identify civilian vessels that could rapidly be purchased or seized in the event of war. Say identify a dozen or two suitable ships in the mid 30s and when Germany invades Poland in 1939 seize or purchase 3 or 4 of them to convert to torpedo boat/ seaplane tenders.

They won't be as good as purpose built vessels but they'll be cheaper and a nice supplement to the new purpose built seaplane tender. This would allow Norway to spread the capabilities out a bit and theoretically support 3 or 4 different small seaplane/ torpedo boat forces from 3 or 4 different Fjords. Effectively this would prevent Norway from putting all its eggs in one basket.
 
I'm curious about what coastal defences have been augmented or placed. We know that the guns from the Old coast defence ships and protected cruisers have been mounted ashore but where is another matter.

Also an excellent update :) Tensions are clearly rising for sure!
 
I'm curious about what coastal defences have been augmented or placed. We know that the guns from the Old coast defence ships and protected cruisers have been mounted ashore but where is another matter.

Also an excellent update :) Tensions are clearly rising for sure!
Chapter X:
 
Chapter XVI
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Chapter XVI: Quisling’s Big Break

14 December, 1939
Viktor Quisling was sitting in a chair, waiting to be called into the office of the Chancellor of Germany, Adolf Hitler. He couldn’t believe his luck: five days ago, he’d arrived in the country, impressing many high-up Nazis including Eric Raeder, the commander of the Kriegsmarine, Germany’s navy, and won an audience with Hitler himself. He’d gained influence in 1934, when people began questioning if the Conservatives, then the ruling party, were actually doing the country good, and while he hadn’t gotten a coup or a new election, that had been just enough for the Conservatives to lose the seats that gave them the majority in 1936, and Viktor had gained popularity ever since. He currently was the leader of the Nasjonal Samling, or the “National Unity” party, which was much further right than the Conservatives. Of course, the ‘36 election hadn’t gone as planned, as the Labour party, which was Left leaning, was now in charge, with the Conservatives nipping at their heels. Viktor didn’t like the Conservatives-while there were some who sympathized with him to an extent, and most didn’t think of the Jews as a problem. But what he had impressed so many people with was his plan to call up the Norwegian people to support the ‘liberators,’ who would protect them from the Red menace-after all, Stalin and his Bolsheviks were currently invading Finland, which shared a border with Norway, and it would seem logical to the Norwegian people that the Germans were just there to help them fight the Soviets.

Quisling was called to Hitler’s office, and there they spoke for nearly two hours about how the Soviets were invading Finland, plus the rumors that the British could blockade Narvik and therefore Germany’s iron ore. What really got Hitler’s attention was the Anti-Bolshevism among the Norwegian people, who’d had a Red Scare in 1929, and still remembered the threat of Soviet invasion. Since the Nazis were the enemies of the Bolsheviks, the people, and most of the military would hopefully allow the Germany forces to occupy their cities for protection. Hitler was also impressed by Quisling’s anti-semitist ideas, and agreed that he would serve as Norway’s head of government once it was captured. Hitler also got the idea that Norway was lightly defended-Quisling told him that the Navy had some shiny new destroyers, certainly no match for German battleships, that the coastal artillery was old and slow, with the only modifications being some new anti-aircraft guns, and that the Army Air Force had no modern aircraft.

The moment Quisling left, Hitler immediately ordered the preparations to be begun to invade Norway in the spring of 1940. In the coming months, a plan to land troops using warships in Norway’s larger cities, which would then be reinforced by a whole army corps, was formulated, while Denmark would be taken for the use of its northern airfields to assist. Literally every ship the navy had that could still go to sea was to be used. Nikolaus von Falkenhorst, who had fought in Finland in the last war, giving him experience in the Arctic, was given command, though the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe elements weren’t directly under his command.

The Battleship Bismarck was to be rushed to completion, at the cost of delaying the cruisers Prinz Eugen and Seydlitz, the Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin, and some smaller ships. It was hoped Bismarck could be completed by early-April, but most cautioned the ship couldn’t be completed that fast, even with the extra labor and materials, and even if she were, she wouldn’t have undergone trials if she were to be used in the operation.
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My schedule is a lot more open now, you guys can probably guess why, I'm going to update more often since I have much more free time.
 
This is really the killer!


Agreed...
I would want to simply provide local defence militia/battalions that can quickly mobilize no matter what they ahve kit wise as they will be fighting troops landing from ships (and later aircraft) so dont really need to plan to face many heavy weapons. Its far better to attack beachheads and hold docks early on than be good on day 2-3.
I question if any none civlilian transport is really required as they should plan on fighting locally if not simply have them use traines/trucks requsitioned to move to fight as they can only use a very few limited roads that are mostly blocked from flanking by mountains ranges? Norway is long and thin with water on one side and Sweden/Mountains on the other so not sure open manuver warfare is really worth working on.....

Would German not be better for the local conditions the S boats are coming into service in early 30s and are larger and better in heavy weather?

Yes and they could also buy some FTs for not much that would be very useful holding local docks and airfields agaisnt German infantry without much support.....?
I dont think you need to worry ist to expensive IMO to buy all norwegen and you can really on getting support from LON/Sweden early on in 30s against say the Reds....(and later GB/Fr v Germany)

Would it not be perfectly ready to work on a cash and carry basis?

Purchasing some FT17s would be a good move. They'd be used more as slightly mobile pill boxes then as true tanks per se. Deploy them in small numbers around the biggest ports to quickly react to the first wave of lightly armed troops from a early WW2 amphibious invasion. In the early to mid 30s they should be purchasable for near scrap prices. Also might be a good idea to acquire a large number of spare FT17 turrets without the rest of the tank body. Position them as pillboxes in valuable areas. They're 37mm guns should do for dealing with landing craft, light attack craft, and light industry.
 
Purchasing some FT17s would be a good move. They'd be used more as slightly mobile pill boxes then as true tanks per se. Deploy them in small numbers around the biggest ports to quickly react to the first wave of lightly armed troops from a early WW2 amphibious invasion. In the early to mid 30s they should be purchasable for near scrap prices. Also might be a good idea to acquire a large number of spare FT17 turrets without the rest of the tank body. Position them as pillboxes in valuable areas. They're 37mm guns should do for dealing with landing craft, light attack craft, and light industry.
Most RNA regiments in the ports have 37mm cannon, heavy and light machine guns, regular infantry weapons, plus a handful 7.5cm howitzers. They possess some vehicles and bicycles for mobility, but the port regiments are mainly meant to repel invasions from the sea. There are also forces on the Swedish border, and in Finmark as per OTL because of the Winter War. These are optimized for mountain warfare.
 
Oh dear the Austrian Corporal going to throw the Bismarck into battle before she works up against virtually the entire RN and swarms of Norwegian MTBs plus their destroyers and submarines not to mention their coastal defences. Somehow I rather doubt this will work out well.
 
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The problem is mobilization level?

The KM (assuming they try like OTL?) will be coming pre declaration of war/under a false flag until they are challenged, I dont think you can really hope to fully stop them landing its just if they cant get hold of a port/airport and therefore plans fall apart and the force get defeated with GB/Fr help within a couple of days?

I dont think the navy helps much apart from maybe a DD out in the wrong place that challenges the invasion force offshore and dies therefore allowing coastal defence/army to fire before they land?

Unless they have a very high readiness status or better spy's I cant think many of the ships/aircraft will actually be ready and out at sea to fight the first wave? But as the first wave was not huge and the army has been improved they might well stop them and allow the ships/aircraft to prevent reinforcements to ensure victory?

Its then a matter of can the Skagerrak hold like the channel or will the Germans go via Sweden? Or maybe we just get S&G and the rest of the KM being hurt more with Norway still falling? Anyway looking forward to it!

Mobilization, not equipment, was the biggest issue then, and it's still true here. All the weapons in the world aren't gonna mean jack if nobody is on duty or called up to man them.
 
Mobilization, not equipment, was the biggest issue then, and it's still true here. All the weapons in the world aren't gonna mean jack if nobody is on duty or called up to man them.
Yes but even a few minefeild might wreck the invasion without much human intervention and some things like Costal guns or a couple of FT tanks on the main runway dont need many men ready to fight to make a huge difference.
 
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