Is this in addition to the 4+4 of 33 or did that not get completed?
Note that by March 38 getting 2 squadrons (of 12 ie 24?) of good fighters is going to be hard ready for early 40?
Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL
- Thread starter CV(N)-6
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Note that by March 38 getting 2 squadrons (of 12 ie 24?) of good fighters is going to be hard ready for early 40?
Driftless
Donor
The Germans may still invade, but it could take a different form than in our history. With the Norwegians more prepared, the Germans might:
- Delay Weserubung? That seems unlikely, as they were on a tight timetable for 1940 as is.
- Seek some kind of a political settlement/intimidation to bend the Norwegians to their will? The British/French will play their own version of that game.
- Change objectives to just securing Narvik and the North? That seems really risky, as the path to get there becomes much more dangerous. The Norwegians likely ally with the British and French, theoretically with the RN and MN operating from Bergen or Trondheim. Ongoing open warfare next door is going to make the Swedes real nervous too.
- Go even bigger with Weserubung? More ships, more planes, more soldiers? That seems like overkill for a secondary objective. That's also harder to hide your pre-invasion preparations.
I dont think 1 &2 (OK this is also posible but boring as they end up as another Spain/Sweden for WWII) or 4 works (lack of extra ships)?
Going north (3) just get them cut off they probably should just go south and then drive north (with a much easier time post FoF)?
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Driftless
Donor
I do think the "go big" option is more likely. IF the Germans invade with more force, I don't know that the Norwegians/British/French/Poles(?) defeat them, even with early warning and better mobilization. However, that format likely bleeds the German navy even more than historically(Some of those coastal guns are going to do some damage). I'm not sure how the damage to all of the various air forces plays out, if the Norwegians get a better start and the British get more planes in-country. By comparison, the Germans established early air-superiority in the invasion of the Low-countries and France. Would heavier losses to the Ju-52's impact the para drops in May? How would a longer campaign in Norway affect the May campaigns? Historically, the British and French pulled their forces out of northern Norway (the south was already lost) after the Germans broke through at Sedan. What happens if both sides are betting hell out of each other in the southern valleys around Lillehammer?
That threat of bigger losses would be a hefty calculation for the OKW.
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)
Driftless
Donor
I'm thinking the Germans would be pretty well tuned into the general uptick in Norwegian defences, so they'll need to beef up the invasion force as a result.
The KM pretty much used everything it had to invade Norway, and getting Sweden to invade with them is ASB IMO and I'm not going to do a Berlin-Moscow Axis
Driftless
Donor
They left the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to meander back and forth in the Norwegian Sea as a local reserve. Catching the Glorious flat-footed probably wasn't expected in their plans. In the environment you're setting up, the S&G may be needed in the first wave, or much closer to the action as an immediate reserve. If all those coastal guns are put to use, either the Germans are held offshore longer or take more losses coming in. Then, even more of the surface Kriegsmaine becomes leaky boats.
Of course, the Germans may look at the defenses, compare them to what's calculated to accomplish the task and decide it's not worth the risk or cost for April 1940
*edit* and like you noted above, they don't know what happened in the Spring and Summer of 1940 ..... yet....
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Actually the Scharnhorsts were the covering force for the Narvik operation and they succeeded in pulling away Renown and her escorts which enabled the German destroyers in Navik to beat back the First RN counterattack of 5 Destroyers at the cost of two of their own. Of course then Warspite and a Flotilla of Tribals arrived and things went...poorly for the remaining 8 German destroyers and the lone accompanying submarine. Later the Scharnhorsts were sent to attack the evacuation convoy but instead ran into Glorious which was terrible luck for the Allies as the convoy had a couple capital ships escorting it so of the Germans had ran into it instead of Glorious they would have pulled a Brave Sir Robin and caused virtually no damage
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Johan is going to be the Norwegian version of Churchill, isn't he. When the Nazis roll into Poland, suddenly all his detractors are going to sing a very different tune.
More like when Hitler breaks the Munich agreement and invades the rest of Czechoslovakia
Driftless
Donor
Good thought ! Given the changes of direction for this version of Norway, what might Quisling's frame of mind be? Would this shift him to a grumbling acqiescence, or push him over the edge? For some true believers, nothing is more infuriating than the middle ground.
Driftless
Donor
On a related note, I would think it unlikely that Johan, or others in leadership, would anticipate a Quisling level threat from the Right. Their attentions have been focused the other direction, coupled with the history of Quisling (and some compatriots) being government ministers themselves at some point.
Ramontxo
Donor
They shall fall in the same pit. And go to the same place down there (and I dont mean Glorious Oz Land)
What would be the effect of more Norwegian defence spending considering he campaigned on the exact issue he might well not become so extreme just as easily as moderating?
What happens for example with the 1932 Kullmann Affair did he fall out with the PM as badly if Norway was spending far more money at the same time on defence? (the point he OTL started to depart from normal main government? Over punishing a peace activist navy officer. ITTL he would presumably be far less upset even if forced to apologies as he gets to buy 8 squadrons of expensive fighters for the army so is obviously in the right even if he has to do some public PR? )
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The new toys for the Army and Navy have certainly made Quisling happy, and don't forget, the Red Scare that happened in 1929 drove the country a bit to the right-not Fascism, but enough that the Labour Party is no longer firmly in control of the Storting. Johan is a respected member of the Storting-he's been there for 12 years, has gotten plenty of bills passed, and is probably the most influential member of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence. The Prime Minister at the moment is still Nygaardsvold, but C.J. Hambro was elected PM in 1930, though Labour made a comeback in 1936, which is why the Prime Minister is a member of the Labour Party.
One question for any Norwegians who are following this story, or anyone more familiar with Norwegian politics of the time than I am: why was there no 1939 Storting Election? My understanding is that elections were held every three years-in the 30's, they were in 1930, 1933, and 1936, but not 1939. Why?
One question for any Norwegians who are following this story, or anyone more familiar with Norwegian politics of the time than I am: why was there no 1939 Storting Election? My understanding is that elections were held every three years-in the 30's, they were in 1930, 1933, and 1936, but not 1939. Why?
Chapter XIV
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Chapter XIV: HNOMS Sleipner
25 April, 1938. 25 Nautical Miles off Bergen
HNOMS Sleipner, the largest ship in the Royal Norwegian Navy according to her crew, though not according to those of the Seaplane Tender Loki, MTB Carrier Snar, and the two Olaf Tryggvason class (there had been a couple of drunken bar fights over the topic in the past few years), was doing something not very typical of a destroyer in combat: going under 20 knots. Kommander Oliver Larsen was in command of the flagship of the 1st Destroyer Squadron. Today, Sleipner’s five powerful 12cm guns and eight 53.3cm torpedoes wouldn’t be used.
“ASDIC contact dead ahead, 1500 yards!” came a report.
“Prepare for the attack run,” Larsen ordered. “Signal Odin to attack them if we miss, Gyller is to stay in position to watch that pesky submarine.”
Sleipner quickly overtook the submerged target, losing it on her ASDIC as she passed over it. Gyller signalled to drop charges. Of course, since this was an exercise, they
weren’t dropped, or the RNN would have a brand new submarine sitting on the seafloor, something that would ruin many careers. Instead, a loud ping was fired off by the ASDIC operator.
“Hard to starboard!” Larsen commanded the helmsman. Sleipner began circling the spot she had pinged. The Alesund class Odin approached in case the attack had failed, and Gyller watched closely.
Soon, the submarine broke the surface, and Odin turned away to avoid a collision. Larsen grinned at the 7.6cm gun in front of the conning tower painted with insignia C3 as cheers erupted from the men on the bridge and others on deck.
“Signal Gyller ‘good job’. Signal C3 ‘that all you got?’” Larsen told the signalmen. Several crewmen on the bridge roared with laughter at the second signal.
Sleipner led her two destroyers back to Marineholmen Naval Base, with the slower C3 following. They passed the outer forts and their trawlers, and entered Bergen, passing the sub-chaser UM-4 (UM short for ubåtmorder), which was on patrol. The Minelayer Bjorgvin was at the base, as were 12 MTB’s.
Sleipner was perhaps the most famous of the Eight Year Program’s ships. She had been completed in 1934 at Thornycroft in England, and had steamed into Oslofjord to a warm reception by the people of Norway as the first new ship of the so hotly debated program. She had impressed with her sleek lines, and outraced the old destroyer Draug with ease at a major publicity event. She’d outshot the Norge in a gunnery contest, and was known to be one of the best maintained ships in the fleet, with a well trained crew. The ‘kill’ today only added to her reputation.
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Chapter XIV: HNOMS Sleipner
25 April, 1938. 25 Nautical Miles off Bergen
HNOMS Sleipner, the largest ship in the Royal Norwegian Navy according to her crew, though not according to those of the Seaplane Tender Loki, MTB Carrier Snar, and the two Olaf Tryggvason class (there had been a couple of drunken bar fights over the topic in the past few years), was doing something not very typical of a destroyer in combat: going under 20 knots. Kommander Oliver Larsen was in command of the flagship of the 1st Destroyer Squadron. Today, Sleipner’s five powerful 12cm guns and eight 53.3cm torpedoes wouldn’t be used.
“ASDIC contact dead ahead, 1500 yards!” came a report.
“Prepare for the attack run,” Larsen ordered. “Signal Odin to attack them if we miss, Gyller is to stay in position to watch that pesky submarine.”
Sleipner quickly overtook the submerged target, losing it on her ASDIC as she passed over it. Gyller signalled to drop charges. Of course, since this was an exercise, they
weren’t dropped, or the RNN would have a brand new submarine sitting on the seafloor, something that would ruin many careers. Instead, a loud ping was fired off by the ASDIC operator.
“Hard to starboard!” Larsen commanded the helmsman. Sleipner began circling the spot she had pinged. The Alesund class Odin approached in case the attack had failed, and Gyller watched closely.
Soon, the submarine broke the surface, and Odin turned away to avoid a collision. Larsen grinned at the 7.6cm gun in front of the conning tower painted with insignia C3 as cheers erupted from the men on the bridge and others on deck.
“Signal Gyller ‘good job’. Signal C3 ‘that all you got?’” Larsen told the signalmen. Several crewmen on the bridge roared with laughter at the second signal.
Sleipner led her two destroyers back to Marineholmen Naval Base, with the slower C3 following. They passed the outer forts and their trawlers, and entered Bergen, passing the sub-chaser UM-4 (UM short for ubåtmorder), which was on patrol. The Minelayer Bjorgvin was at the base, as were 12 MTB’s.
Sleipner was perhaps the most famous of the Eight Year Program’s ships. She had been completed in 1934 at Thornycroft in England, and had steamed into Oslofjord to a warm reception by the people of Norway as the first new ship of the so hotly debated program. She had impressed with her sleek lines, and outraced the old destroyer Draug with ease at a major publicity event. She’d outshot the Norge in a gunnery contest, and was known to be one of the best maintained ships in the fleet, with a well trained crew. The ‘kill’ today only added to her reputation.
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