Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL

[steamboy]

I'd say using the Soviets as a boogie man works, baring in mind that the Germans are still very limited in their armed forces and Hitlers not long into power. Still, JSB is right, get rid of all the old WW1 and pre-WW1 claptrap, scrap it in Norwegian ports, put the guns ashore and use local labor to build the earthworks and defences for these weapons as long as they're properly sited and placed, not just dumped where it looks good politically but is in a bad place militarily.

Buy searchlights to support them and have a robust radio or telephone system connected to each battery. You could even have them in disspearing mounts if you wanted to be really snazzy.

If possible, design and build a locally made MTB type ship, you could make them out of wood (cold waters = not too much risk of woodworm etc to eat the hulls) and its a resource Norway has enough of. Cheap, easy to build and man and if properly deployed during a crisis a lethal threat against any ships trying to force the Fjords. You'd also probably have to build them in the varous ports they are meant to defend and have the weapons shipped to them by train or sea. I'd not want to sail a MTB off the Norwegian coast considering what those waters can be like.

2 x 18-inch torpedoes and either a .303 or similar weapon on the bow, the 303's should be easy to come buy either with the army or from somewhere like the UK, buy up some vickers watercooled MG's and see if the RN's willing to give you some of its older torpedoes. Really don't go for anything bigger. You might want some larger 'coastguard' ships that could be based on say a larger fishing trawler, totally not minelayers. Honest....

 

[Spencersj345.346]

I'd say using the Soviets as a boogie man works, baring in mind that the Germans are still very limited in their armed forces and Hitlers not long into power. Still, JSB is right, get rid of all the old WW1 and pre-WW1 claptrap, scrap it in Norwegian ports, put the guns ashore and use local labor to build the earthworks and defences for these weapons as long as they're properly sited and placed, not just dumped where it looks good politically but is in a bad place militarily.

Buy searchlights to support them and have a robust radio or telephone system connected to each battery. You could even have them in disspearing mounts if you wanted to be really snazzy.

If possible, design and build a locally made MTB type ship, you could make them out of wood (cold waters = not too much risk of woodworm etc to eat the hulls) and its a resource Norway has enough of. Cheap, easy to build and man and if properly deployed during a crisis a lethal threat against any ships trying to force the Fjords. You'd also probably have to build them in the varous ports they are meant to defend and have the weapons shipped to them by train or sea. I'd not want to sail a MTB off the Norwegian coast considering what those waters can be like.

Your right about the MTB's not being able to move around very easily indeed any sane warship design for the Northern parts of Norway should displace at least 500 and ideally 1000 tons.

 

[steamboy]

Your right about the MTB's not being able to move around very easily indeed any sane warship design for the Northern parts of Norway should displace at least 500 and ideally 1000 tons.

Aye which is torpedo boat territory, but they're expensive to build and equip as you'd have to import all the weapons unless you're willing to use very old guns from any scrapped warships as well as having the expense of manning and crewing them and building docks for them.

 

[Driftless]

.......and have a robust radio or telephone system connected to each battery......

There's another public works angle. Generally upgrade the coastal telephone and wireless system for both military and civilian use. More wireless stations helps link the remote communities along the very long coastline.

 

[CV(N)-6]

I'd say using the Soviets as a boogie man works, baring in mind that the Germans are still very limited in their armed forces and Hitlers not long into power. Still, JSB is right, get rid of all the old WW1 and pre-WW1 claptrap, scrap it in Norwegian ports, put the guns ashore and use local labor to build the earthworks and defences for these weapons as long as they're properly sited and placed, not just dumped where it looks good politically but is in a bad place militarily.

Buy searchlights to support them and have a robust radio or telephone system connected to each battery. You could even have them in disspearing mounts if you wanted to be really snazzy.

If possible, design and build a locally made MTB type ship, you could make them out of wood (cold waters = not too much risk of woodworm etc to eat the hulls) and its a resource Norway has enough of. Cheap, easy to build and man and if properly deployed during a crisis a lethal threat against any ships trying to force the Fjords. You'd also probably have to build them in the varous ports they are meant to defend and have the weapons shipped to them by train or sea. I'd not want to sail a MTB off the Norwegian coast considering what those waters can be like.

2 x 18-inch torpedoes and either a .303 or similar weapon on the bow, the 303's should be easy to come buy either with the army or from somewhere like the UK, buy up some vickers watercooled MG's and see if the RN's willing to give you some of its older torpedoes. Really don't go for anything bigger. You might want some larger 'coastguard' ships that could be based on say a larger fishing trawler, totally not minelayers. Honest....

I will have the plans for the new navy (if the bill passes) posted fairly soon. Some of you guys' ideas I was already planning on, some I may add if that's okay to do. I can assure you we won't be building new coast defenders or cruisers.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Aye which is torpedo boat territory, but they're expensive to build and equip as you'd have to import all the weapons unless you're willing to use very old guns from any scrapped warships as well as having the expense of manning and crewing them and building docks for them.

True enough about the cost(you also forgot about the expensive engines)although the drydocks the Norwegian Navy does have should be able to hold an Torpedo boat and indeed any DD of the 30s baring the French ones. Of course having decently sized fast ships in the navy makes them very handy indeed when some poor fishermen or merchant ship run into issues since they can actually get there in time to help a lot of the time which will be great for PR and thus getting more money for the navy

 

[CV(N)-6]

I question if there is much threat? RN (and other LoN Swedish/French etc) will kill any Soviet force that comes out into the North sea in early 30s?

It's less about a plausible threat and more about a public panic. Most people don't have a great grasp of the current military situation, and maybe think the Soviet Fleet is larger than it is (go ask someone you know who doesn't pay much attention to the world's militaries how many carriers Russia has). You're completely right, the LoN would blow the Soviet Baltic Fleet out of the water, but everyone is scared that there may be a coup in their country, and the fact that the military probably can't stop the Soviets (according to the papers, where they get most of their info) means that everyone is scared that the country could go communist regardless of what would happen to the Red Fleet if it tried something like this. Norway has democratic elections, and if people start calling for rearmament so the country can resist invasion and the people support the rearmament, an appreciable number of MP's really have no choice but to hop on the bandwagon or get voted out for someone who supports the modernization.

 

[jsb]

I can assure you we won't be building new coast defenders or cruisers.

It's less about a plausible threat and more about a public panic. .... the Soviet Baltic Fleet out of the water, ....the fact that the military probably can't stop the Soviets

The problem is what would you buy that can stop the Red Fleet apart from Coastal guns and still be affordable? (I agree cruiser are almost the worst thing to buy in this case)

The Red fleet has a few Battleship, yes they are old rebuilds but still 4x3 12" guns so no coastal defence ship/CLs will really work....
They also have plenty of gunboats/DD/SS and a few light cruiser so light forces (DD/TB/CLs) are also risky?
SS are very expensive to keep running even if the might work....

I think cost effectiveness wise you could buy some very cheap larger (6-14" 2nd hand WWI surplus) guns for not much money in 1930 and then fit them in home made earth works, that and mines that could be home made in Norway.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

The problem is what would you buy that can stop the Red Fleet apart from Coastal guns and still be affordable? (I agree cruiser are almost the worst thing to buy in this case)

The Red fleet has a few Battleship, yes they are old rebuilds but still 4x3 12" guns so no coastal defence ship will really work....
They also have plenty of gunboats/DD/SS and a few light cruiser so light forces are also risky?

I think cost effectiveness wise you could buy some very cheap larger (6-14" 2nd hand WWI surplus) guns for not much money in 1930 and then fit them in home made earth works, that and mines that could be home made in Norway.

You're more likely to get 13.5" guns on the cheap from the UK once they pull every 13.5" armed ship from the rosters minus of course Iron Duke taking up the role of the gunnery training ship

 

[jsb]

You're more likely to get 13.5" guns on the cheap from the UK once they pull every 13.5" armed ship from the rosters minus of course Iron Duke taking up the role of the gunnery training ship

Yes in 1930 you could have bought second hand guns cheap for coastal defence from many nations GB, USA and possibly France or Italy or new from Sweden and maybe even Germany & Japan as well....

Its not just the larger guns plenty of cheap 6" (4.7"-9.2") pedestal guns would be readily available at the time for very low prices.

 

[steamboy]

Or some older 12-inch guns that are laying around. and yeah as JSB said, lots of lighter caliber weapons are probably available, hell even a battery of 12-lb guns would be nice as a final shore defence. Someone tries to sneak in on a Merchant, 12-lb guns would riddle it.

You'd probably not want much more than a 12-inch gun, and if possible, a fairly low velocity one, as you don't need range and high muzzle velocity, at the range that a coast defence battery in a Fjords going to be engaging,IE anywhere from a few hundred yards to about 1500 yards at the most, even an oldish 12-inch gun will defeat any armour short of a full on battleship. The RN might have some older Pre-Dreadnought 12-inch weapons lurking in storage. Or some old French guns (the 9.4's off the Danton's for example or their 12-inch rifles).

In the Battle of Dobrak sound, Fort Oskaborg's very old 1881 vintage 11-inch guns firing HE shells did horrid damage to the Blucher.

 

[steamboy]

As for the defences themselves, they've not got to be much, its not like the Norwegian goverment needs Palmerston forts

Or a substantial beasty like Oscaborg

But you'd still need earth revenments, barracks for the troops etc and fire control positions and would still be fairly pricey. These defences even if not on the scale of the above images would still be substantial and could well be a good job driver around the country.

And you also need the men to man these guns, Norway's pacifism in WW2 was pretty much criminally negligent in how much the Government and military were willing to belive that that nasty Mr Hitler won't do anything bad despite, you know...WAR in Europe and just a few hundred miles away. Calling up people by post, not doing anything when the Narvik was intercepted etc etc etc, the old meme of an osterich sticking its head in the sand springs to mind. Perhaps have the Navy become a coast defence force, not one subservient to the army but responsible for the coast defences and any small ship flotilla's the Norwegians use. And hopefully any defences would be manned and at least in some state of readyness should anything bad happen.

I can't recall if any Norwegian Merchants had been sunk yet, but ideally if the Norwegians do a kind of 'armed neutrality' to defend themselves, if a Norwegian ship is torpedoed and sunk or when the UK and France declare war on Germany, you'd want to have the reserves called up and bring any defences up to at least 75% manned with mine being laid and your Minelaye..Coast Guard ships out keeping an eye for anything funky. If the Altmark Incident happens as per OTL, then you go to alert, get those forts manned and deploy the mine barrages and make like a snow covered porcupine in the hope that the nasty Mr Hitler really does not try anything.

And if he does...well, in truth unless the Norwegians can make the landings horridly bloody, and both buy time for the French and UK to react, then once the Germans get ashore, there's not much they can do, the gap between the two sides is simply too much for Norway vs Germany in terms of military training, ability and equipment. But what the Norwegians could do is make the landings or attacks very messy indeed, if they inspected the Merchant ships the Germans had sailed into Norwegian ports, full of troops or caused casualties there. Imagine if the Norwegians had some 57mm 6-lb guns trained on those German ships and once German troops started boiling out of them, they opened fire, if they'd held out in places a bit longer, then it might not well be as easy for the Germans as it was in the opening stages.

Sorry for gibbering, this threads got my mind churning

 

[jsb]

But you'd still need earth revenments, barracks for the troops etc and fire control positions and would still be fairly pricey. These defences even if not on the scale of the above images would still be substantial and could well be a good job driver around the country.

if they inspected the Merchant ships the Germans had sailed into Norwegian ports

I agree I think the best cost wise would be a few 4.7"-6" old guns in single spread out revetments covering wire command detonated mines (and torpedoes) blocking each significant port/town, with a few minimally armed (single 3"-4.7") trawlers (and the existing light fleet of TB/DDs) to carry out inspections and (suicidally) challenge ships as they approach? The men can be mostly reservists and could simply rotate from the local towns to save money, especially on large new barracks?

in truth unless the Norwegians can make the landings horridly bloody, and both buy time for the French and UK to react, then once the Germans get ashore, there's not much they can do, the gap between the two sides is simply too much for Norway vs Germany in terms of military training, ability and equipment.

I dont think its that hard to stop the invasion, especially if the Army also prepares forces to cover the airfields from capture. Invasion by sea is hard and once the Germans fail to take the ports intact they have little to work with and are in deep trouble with GB/Fr forces arriving to help and cut them off.

 

[CV(N)-6]

Was doing some research on OTL coastal batteries at the time of the invasion in April 1940, hit the jackpot: map of coast defenses, figured I'd share it if it could be any use to anyone in the future: Here

 

[jsb]

Was doing some research on OTL coastal batteries at the time of the invasion in April 1940, hit the jackpot: map of coast defenses, figured I'd share it if it could be any use to anyone in the future: Here

They are also all available direct from the US army rather than goggle books,
https://sill-www.army.mil/ada-online/coast-artillery-journal/_docs/1944/1-2/Jan-Feb 1944.pdf

 

[Father Maryland]

Or some older 12-inch guns that are laying around. and yeah as JSB said, lots of lighter caliber weapons are probably available, hell even a battery of 12-lb guns would be nice as a final shore defence. Someone tries to sneak in on a Merchant, 12-lb guns would riddle it.

You'd probably not want much more than a 12-inch gun, and if possible, a fairly low velocity one, as you don't need range and high muzzle velocity, at the range that a coast defence battery in a Fjords going to be engaging,IE anywhere from a few hundred yards to about 1500 yards at the most, even an oldish 12-inch gun will defeat any armour short of a full on battleship. The RN might have some older Pre-Dreadnought 12-inch weapons lurking in storage. Or some old French guns (the 9.4's off the Danton's for example or their 12-inch rifles).

In the Battle of Dobrak sound, Fort Oskaborg's very old 1881 vintage 11-inch guns firing HE shells did horrid damage to the Blucher.

If you're at close enough range if the shell is big enough even ancient hardware can be lethal. For dealing with landing craft, torpedo boats, and destroyers even a 12 pounder or a 3 inch gun can be lethal. Even if the ship isn't completely killed it'll be effectively mission disabled.

 

[CV(N)-6]

They are also all available direct from the US army rather than goggle books,
https://sill-www.army.mil/ada-online/coast-artillery-journal/_docs/1944/1-2/Jan-Feb 1944.pdf

Thanks, jsb. Apparently, the google version was misleading, as the entry is in the September-October book, not Jan-Feb

 

[CV(N)-6]

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Chapter VII: The Vote

Late 1930-Early 1931
After speaking with coalition leaders, Johan, now the leading voice for the so called ‘Modernization Movement,’ introduced a bill to fund a ten year program to run from 1932-1942 to Storting as a Private Member’s Bill. The program would allow (and stipulate) that the Navy and Army would modernize their forces, with separate funding allocated to each air service, and only expand an approved amount. The bill was submitted to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence on 18 January 1931, and submitted to Storting ten days later.
The first reading took place on 1 February 1931. The Labour and Communist parties heavily opposed the bill. The Conservative party was in favor, the Liberal and Farmers’ parties were open to both sides of the debate. In the end, the jobs created by the program, its success with voters in the recent elections, and the questionable ability of the Army and Navy to do their jobs with the neglect from the funding began to sway the on-the-fence MP’s. The first reading passed 80-70.
Three days after the first, the second reading was held. If the bill passed again, it would then go to the King and Prime Minister to be signed into law. Having figured out what worked to convince MP’s to side with the ‘Modernization Movement,’ Johan and his allies began emphasizing the points that everyone related to, the most persuasive reasons to approve of the bill. The Labour party emphasized that this was going too far, and wouldn’t help the depression. In the end, the Modernization Movement was a bit more successful in its arguments, and the bill passed 81-69. The bill became an Act of Parliament. King Haakvon VII signed the bill, and it was countersigned by Prime Minister C.J. Hambro. The armed forces would be modernized and slightly increased, creating jobs and allowing the nation to be able to protect her sovereignty effectively.

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How a bill is passed in Norway

 

[CV(N)-6]

After this, the posts will be a bit longer and more to the point of the actual modernization of the fleet instead of politics.

 

[NHBL]

This is interesting