Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL

An AVG (American Volunteer Group) that includes combat engineers, or even SeaBees, along with fighter pilots. Col. "Ole" D. Blakeslee or Col. C "Per" Peterson could find useful work in this Norway ;)

One AVG engineer to another: "When I signed on they told me I was going "Fargo". They weren't kidding...."

At this stage of the game I'd guess Army Engineers since the Seabees aren't in existence yet...

and let me propose another little weasel for 1942...liberating the Jutland peninsula, perhaps the rest of Denmark as well...
 

Driftless

Donor
At this stage of the game I'd guess Army Engineers since the Seabees aren't in existence yet...
Good point. Perhaps do some recruiting at CCC camps in the Midwest and Northwest? Plenty of Norwegian, Finnish, Swedish, and Danish ancestry folks doing useful construction work, often with limited supplies. Recruit from the US Army officers who were typically in charge of those Camps as well. If necessary to skirt US neutrality laws, Norway provides a one-way bus or rail ticket to Canada. "I'm Ole Peterson from Minneapolis, Manitoba....."

and let me propose another little weasel for 1942...liberating the Jutland peninsula, perhaps the rest of Denmark as well...
That might be a bit ambitious. You might need to have the Swedes on board, and that might not happen till later, I'd guess.
 
I suspect, in this timeline, that Denmark will play the part that Norway played in OTL. That is, it will attract hordes of German troops because Hitler will fear it as a backdoor invasion route. It probably means a much rougher occupation ITTL for the Danes, and it will also mean tons of Atlantic Wall bunkers and gun emplacements all over Denmark. I think the fact that Southern England is a better place to stage Overlord from will mean that the Wallies will still go in through Normandy, but you can bet that there will be a massive deception plan indicating a Norway based invasion of Denmark.
 
Will Norway be used as an air base for bombers attacking Berlin?
The airfields would need major upgrades to take four engined bombers, or even Wellingtons.
That's not a no...
As the author has explained by now, Norway is not as close to Germany as you might think. I've posted the maps before, have a look at some--mine upthread, or some real ones. Parts of England are closer to many targets in Germany than even the southern point of Norway is--plus, as long as Sweden remains neutral, one cannot overfly them. (Great powers can get away with some violations here and there, but not major ones and not consistently and it would be foolish for either side to piss off the Swedes gratuitously; they might join the other side after all!)

I've shared my view before; Norway, assuming the Norwegians can finish the job of clearing it (looks more and more like that will happen, and I always figured they probably would, with suitable Allied help the Allies had better give if they are at all smart) is basically an extension of the air/sea defenses of the British Isles.

One can marginally reach some points farther east in Germany a little better, but it isn't a dramatic advantage over just striking out of Britain.

That said, it is another vector to keep Goering and Hitler guessing, and I would expect that after Norway is cleared, Bomber Command will indeed want a big concrete runway major base or set of them in the southeast--and possibly instead of it being formally BC, the aircraft might be seconded to the Norwegian air force that would then establish its own BC, though I daresay if there is a surge of heavy sorties out of there, there will be a lot of actually RAF planes in the same formations with Norwegian ones.

Bomber Command was a huge expense, and Norway probably can't foot the bill for a proper complex, even if it winds up legally a Norwegian set of bases, it will be de facto British (later with lots of Americans and their planes too). I do wonder if there are logistic bottlenecks, aspects of construction Norway can't manage without a lot of imported stuff, but I doubt that; the concrete runways will be something Norwegian industry can do, I expect--if someone pays the bill.

Now if the Swedes came in on the Allied side on the other hand, southern Sweden would be a hell of a great place for Bomber Command to stage out of! Vice versa of course as long as the Luftwaffe is much to worry about, all southern Sweden is hostage to vicious Luftwaffe strikes, unless heavily defended of course.

Hitler really has to keep his head when dealing with Stockholm; if he can just keep the Swedes neutral that is worth a lot to German defense. Of course what he really would want is Sweden in the Axis, but I think I can hope that is just about impossible--especially if Norway frees itself. OTL with the Axis holding Norway, the Swedes had a gun to their head--now they will as well but it will be an Allied gun. Hopefully as the Good Guys the Allies won't be too overbearing, but it pretty much puts paid to any illusions any extreme Swedish reactionaries might have about the desirability of throwing in with Hitler.

Smart bet is that Sweden just stays neutral all through the war as OTL; the most likely way to upset that applecart is if Hitler does something really stupid or crazy to drive the Swedes off the fence.

With Sweden neutral, the major front Norway faces is Denmark across the channel, and that's the north tip of Jutland, not the islands where most population and wealth is.

Berlin is only indifferently in range, not a lot better than flying out of Britain...but Hamburg, Bremen, the Ruhr? They'd be good targets, except the planes out of Norway would have to skirt west of Jutland...unless...
Another part of the calculus, once Allied resources begin to build, then the Aalborg airfields either have to have their AAA defences upgraded significantly or it/they become a costly sideshow to maintain. At some point, the Allies can more easily ratchet up the cost for maintaining that forward base. The primary purpose of Aalborg to the Luftwaffe was as a way-station from Germany to Norway. IF the Germans get pushed out of Norway, then Aalborg has limited use. Patrolling the North Sea has use, but how much? Suppressing sea trade into Southern Norwegian ports?
Unless the author hands the Germans an idiot ball like that.

Make no mistake, if they lose their foothold on Norway the Germans absolutely must maintain and yes, upgrade, their air defenses in Denmark, otherwise it is like inviting Bomber Command in with a red carpet. They also must try to parry any Allied attempts to force the Danish straits. With Sweden neutral, neither side can much stray into Swedish waters, so the much decimated naval power Germany has still in hand absolutely needs all the air cover they can get; only that can prevent the RN from just wading right in.

I am not sure how effective ASW can be by air alone, but Germany is not quite totally bereft of destroyers just yet. The destroyers won't last unless air cover prevents RN heavy units from coming within range of their patrols to the nominal border of Swedish waters. The Germans ought to be laying down mine fields with through corridors they escort the traffic from the Baltic they approve through, and patrol intensely. Aalborg must be kept operational, and competitive.

What the Germans do not have to do is try to bomb Norway. But OTL of course we have the Battle of Britain as an example of the ruling mentality at work in Berlin, and I suppose Norway is going to catch a share of that--though BoB blitzes were aided by the Germans taking the Low Countries and France, giving them much closer bases; Norway might be largely spared. OTL a few strikes were tried at the British north, I think someone here had the story about training/recuperation bases in Scotland that responded and the Germans gave up such long range strikes. I guess Norway is a comparable problem for the Luftwaffe and so, they might not suffer much in the way of the Blitz. But again, it is Hitler and Goering calling the shots on this, so you never know.

Even without that kind of idiot ball, which no author has to hand such minds as Hitler's that can think them up themselves, which would definitely require maintaining Aalborg to guard the bomber and escort route to Norway, it would be pretty amazingly dumb for Hitler to fail to make north Jutland fairly bristle. How else can he deter an amphibious invasion of Jutland?

I suppose OTL some submarines came through the Danish straits both ways, from both sides; I believe the Soviets were generally able to get subs out of their Baltic ports into the Atlantic all through the Cold War though I don't know if any of them actually slipped through undetected, versus being let through because to try to stop them would be an act of war. At this stage of technology I don't suppose either side can totally block the other, but with gauntlets of minefields to run, I don't think even an RN sub (or those daring and successful Poles) can get all the way into the Baltic without running serious risk of being detected and sunk--this assumes that north Jutland and the Danish fields generally are sending out patrols heavily though. Ground those air patrols, divert the aircraft elsewhere, and the door to the Baltic is open for Allied subs.

So yeah, Aalborg had better become a huge LW base.
 
I think the biggest advantage Norway offers is that it hugely bottles up the U-Boats. Forget bomber command. Put Coastal Command in there and work in concert with Coastal Command from the UK and you can strangle off any U-Boat offensive as you're forcing them to go submerged for a far greater distance before breaking out into the Atlantic. This slows their transits down and increases the risk of being caught on the surface, especially once ASV is introduced.

As Shevek pointed out Norway's not actually THAT close to Germany, but it can act as bomber base if needed, gardening raids into the Baltic to mine the training areas the Germans use for U-boats, hitting Kiel, or the Kiel Canal (not that early war bombers will do much to such massive works) and the like. It all draws the Germans eyes North. It could mean that a fear of an assault across the Denmark narrows by the RN could make Hitler order the construction of massive, expensive and manpower consuming coastal defences. After all, got to put the guns from the Scharnhorst and Gnisenau somewhere right?

Aalborg will probably become a huge LW base. Hitler was insane, but he wasn't stupid and Aalborg was already a large, modern airfield that will no doubt be expanded.

With the Battle of France seemingly going as per OTL we've still got one big question mark to answer.

What will the French military do? Will they act as per OTL and have the vast majority sit the war out or remain under the Vichy Flag. Or will Norways bold and plucky defiance against the Nazi's show them that the Germans CAN be beaten, and inspire other colonies or military commands to fight on? The dream situation would be that French North Africa largely ignores the armstice and keeps fighting. And this would mean that most of the Marine Nationale, including its most modern units, will be available in time. And with Benny presumably leaping into the frey, this would place Libya under huge stress. This would mean that there's no real NA campaign, freeing up Allied forces from that.

If that don't happen but more French opt to fight on, its only good for the Allies. But we don't know which way that cookies gonna crumble yet :D

But the immediate risk following the fall of France is Germany launching an air blitz against the UK and Norway to try and force them into surrendering or making peace. And at the moment, Norway's vulnerable. Its got limited air defences, limited fighters and no early warning as well as few really capable airfields that the Germans all know about. I could guess that Oslo's in for a rough time of it.

Also just thinking about the wrecked state of the Kriegsmarine, with NO heavy surface ship threat left assuming that the scrapping order for the Scharnhorst and Gnisenau goes ahead this is a GOOD thing for the RN. It frees up heavy escorts for convoys. You'd only need to employ DD's on Convoy duty, not any heavy units which could then be put to better use elsewhere.
 
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The question is, can Norway's shipyards keep building. If they can build 2 WEP destroyers a year, then that's a 12.5% increase.

MTBs, MGBs, anti-sub sloops, any of those will help close the Channel.

Has Italy joined the war?
 
Anti-sub sloops and the like would probably be your best bet. Instead of a DD have them building Black Swan type analogues instead and focus heavily on ASW and AA armamement.
 
Also just thinking about the wrecked state of the Kriegsmarine, with NO heavy surface ship threat left assuming that the scrapping order for the Scharnhorst and Gnisenau goes ahead this is a GOOD thing for the RN. It frees up heavy escorts for convoys. You'd only need to employ DD's on Convoy duty, not any heavy units which could then be put to better use elsewhere.
Assuming the RN either moved AFD 8 to Alexandria or moved AFD 9 from Singapore to Alexandria the poor Italians are going to have to deal with ships larger than otl's QEs and Rs including at the very least the Nelsons
 
The question is, can Norway's shipyards keep building. If they can build 2 WEP destroyers a year, then that's a 12.5% increase.

MTBs, MGBs, anti-sub sloops, any of those will help close the Channel.

Has Italy joined the war?
They can build fairly small and uncomplicated MTB's in large numbers, as well as subchasers, and can build 2-3 destroyers/subs at a time, though it takes a bit longer than a British yard. Italy hasn't joined the war, we took a glimpse to the end of May, but we're going to jump back to early May for a bit.
Anti-sub sloops and the like would probably be your best bet. Instead of a DD have them building Black Swan type analogues instead and focus heavily on ASW and AA armamement.
We'll see
 
Forget bomber command.
IMHO, most major players--that is, UK, USA, and Germans--put way too much stress on "Strategic Bombing" which was ill conceived and had far less effectiveness, at high cost, than anticipated. A cold blooded rational approach to air power is to focus on air superiority and supremacy, and tactical attack and auxiliary stuff like recon, which was of course heavily developed OTL.

In realistic political terms though the bomber mafia had a lot of power and cachet and as OTL we can expect lavish over-investment in this mentality. I don't know if the failure of the Blitz changed any German minds; certainly the Luftwaffe was less devoted overall to the Anglo-American mentality of long range heavy bomber strikes overall; I suspect at this early stage they are equally bewildered by it, and the Allies persisted with it because of the open pockets of American lavish capability subsidizing RAF BC in effect, a form of vicotry disease that carried over into the Cold War period. The B-36 is under development (and will be throughout the war, somewhat de-prioritized versus the B-29) because the Army Air Corps division of the Anglosphere bomber mafia wanted capability to strike globally from CONUS, pessimistically assuming no forward bases might be available. Perhaps I underestimate the effectiveness of long range bomber strikes at Japan later in the war, but my impression is that what really strangled the Home Islands was smaller, medium size and range bomber/attack planes in maritime roles, sinking every little boat they saw, which was a lot of them as the noose drew close to Japan, effectively shutting down seaborne imports (and fishing, I suspect, which is a major food source in Japan). Sure, LeMay was able to set the cities on fire, and this was a drain and hardship, but worse was cutting off resources to the nearly resource free Home Islands, which is what really messed up Japanese ability to respond with new hardware. They retained control of broad swathes of territory (unlike the Germans, if you look at a map of the Reich at surrender, it is a narrow little strip, with Norway forming the thickest part of it--the Germans fought almost literally to the last square km of territory they held). But it was all discombobulated due to the industrial center being cut off, no supplies coming in, no new kit coming out, of developed Japan; all those vast portions of China they held were being held with improvised stuff and quite easily swept back by Soviet invasion combined with stiff Chinese insurgency. Indonesia similarly remained under Japanese control for the most part, and was turned over in surrender along with Indochina, and it might have been a lot more rational in strategic terms to bypass retaking the Philippines too; that was an American political choice.

Obviously if some Foresight War uptimer were ISOTed back and advised slow-walking development of the B-29 and a general shift from "heavy bomber" development, having no Silverplate B-29s in hand would have prevented delivery of the A-bombs to Japanese targets, or forced more heroic modes of delivery, commandeering some British very heavy lower altitude jobs which would be more vulnerable to remaining Japanese AA and to being blasted by their own bomb, which would require either suicide missions or attempts at say dropping the bomb with parachutes and time delay to give the bomber a chance to bug out. The advisor could of course advise focusing just on Silverplate and procuring just them in small lots.

Anyway, lacking such answers from the back of the book (and my opinions about the foolhardiness of emphasizing strategic bombing are much disputed to be sure) strategic bombing is politically popular. Certainly there is an attraction in thinking more in terms of a pushbutton war, in kidding oneself that major bombing offenses are somehow equivalent to a land second front. Even with Norway in hand, the basic constraints against invading Festung Europa remain, which delay any possible return to major land offensives against the European Axis by years. Even if North Africa remains largely Allied due to French colonial regimes opting for Free France (and thus reshaping it politically, probably nerfing de Gaulle's influence a lot) and can quickly subdue Libya as an avenue of German reinforcement of Axis contention for the south Med coast, this might enable invasion of Sicily (or conceivably leapfrogging to Sardinia or even Corsica) earlier, but every month we shift that back, the weaker the Allies are even if reinforced with a lot more French forces (plus Norway's proportional contribution). I don't suppose the British, with only Norway in hand as a free Allied European nation, plus all the exilic French, colonial French and various exile forces, can seriously contemplate invading Sicily much earlier than OTL, and trying for it much earlier would pretty much leave the Americans out of the early phases. I note that US forces picked up a lot of vital seasoning in North Africa, beginning the painful process of US troops learning on the job--it wasn't that American recruits weren't trained and drilled but it was observed by both sympathetic (sort of!) British and other Allied officers, and hostile German ones, that American troops seemed immune to such training, making every mistake in the book they should have been trained and drilled against. But then--they learned, under fire, not to make that mistake again and never did. They'd find new mistakes to make, and learn from them. By the end of the war I would assert our citizen GIs were among the best in the world, and with strengths other forces might lack, not all down to the lavish logistic tail they enjoyed either, but I don't think there was any way for them to learn that proficiency but throwing them into the fray and having them learn in the most painful way possible. So any butterflying of Axis contending for North Africa means green American troops go up against the German-reinforced Italians in Sicily, or some ATL indulgence of Churchill's various fond ideas about the "soft underbelly of Europe" farther east in the Med, or possibly even a strike out of Norway to seize a foothold in Jutland, would be the abattoir of our ornery refusing-to-be-trained by the book troops. The sooner they are poured in, the sooner they start learning, but early on they would not have the numbers they would have later, nor would tactical thinking have been shaken down by experience to give them the kit they eventually had OTL. It might be quite demoralizing to both the Americans and the Allies in general to observe poor Yankee performance initially, with no one knowing in advance how effective they'd gradually become.

So, I suppose that the OTL approach was probably most rational. Try for a hard quick strike via Italy, and find that while the Italians themselves aren't much of an asset to the Axis, with German reinforcement Italy is a tough slog--and tougher and more demoralizing (not to any war losing fatal degree, but a serious disappointment) the earlier this strike is attempted. Landing at Jutland is tempting--I say this mainly because Churchill is known to have favored this idea despite having lost Norway OTL; with Norway in hand, the temptation might be irresistible. And it might pay off too, but there is no way it can happen while the Germans are hotly engaged in Fall Gelb, and by the time it might be tried, Hitler will have (assuming FG is substantially as OTL in outcome in continental Europe, however much French force might escape to reinforce the Allies overseas) time to consolidate and regroup, planning Barbarossa already--so really massive forces can pour north to parry such a landing, and quite possibly drive them off any footholds in Jutland the Allies manage. For minimum butterflies we would assume the rest of British command sits on Churchill on this point and the invasion is just a threat Hitler greatly fears, essentially turning Denmark into the role Norway played OTL, as a major sink of heavy German occupation tying down a lot of troops and other forces.

All this means that with Italy turning out to be something of a sideshow, and rational planning of some ATL analog of Normandy putting off that invasion for years (again, Churchill had ideas about it happening a lot earlier than 1944, but these were probably quite quixotic), it would be frustrating and demoralizing to have another apparent Sitzkrieg, Italy notwithstanding, and no attempt at hitting Hitler in his empire whatsoever. Thus, the mentality of Strategic Bombing attacks as a perceived kind of second front would tend to be reinforced, just to give people on the Allied side the general impression the Allies were pursuing the war seriously. OTL Stalin, once he was on the Allied side, was unimpressed, but he'd be more unimpressed if the western Allies make no attempt at hurting the Reich directly by any visible means, other than diverting some Germans south into Italy.

Like it or not then, I am afraid Bomber Command, and SAC, are in and should be expected to get at least as much investment as OTL. Given that mentality, Norwegian bases will be strategic bombing bases, for the British, probably some Norwegian parallel command effectively folded into BC, and eventually the Americans.

Meanwhile, once we accept that overall, there will be a disproportionate diversion of resources into strategic bombing, never mind that it is something of a self-inflicted wound on the overall Allied cost-effectiveness, I don't think Coastal Command and a strong Norwegian parallel command will be neglected, not at all. To an extent they share the same logistic base, Norway-based interceptors will be defending both alike (with additional resources for long range escorts as part of the strategic bombing butcher's bill of course).

I noted the author's remarks about Norway having some aeronautical home grown ability, specializing in maritime flying boats; quite possibly Norwegian Coastal command is actually a major part of Norwegian naval aviation instead of aping the British organizational chart. I don't know how rational it might be to have a homegrown flying boat design instead of just being allocated a share of the British and perhaps American production runs; at any rate such Anglo-American models can be largely maintained by Norwegian capabilities I guess. I am thinking though of a less high performance Norwegian analog of the Mosquito, that is, a yeoman small to medium sea plane turning to abundant Norwegian timber. To be sure, maritime aviation tends to favor metal construction since sea water has a tendency to warp and weaken wood structures, despite the corrosion issues sea water also poses--if the Norwegian sea planes were using metal before the war, they know how to combat that corrosion.

Does Norway not at this date enjoy quite a lot of hydropower already? If the Germans cannot wreck the dams, any established hydropower is a help in working with aluminum, which I don't suppose Norway produces much of domestically, but can be readily imported. Iceland actually does produce bauxite or some related Al ore--nowadays processed in Iceland using geothermal power, but I don't think any of that was developed. If the mines are already a major thing, Icelandic ore can perhaps feed Norwegian smelters to make Norway an exporter (or heavy domestic consumer) of processed aluminum alloys. To be sure this depends on the hydropower dams already existing; if those are just on paper at this point, it would take years to develop them and so effort would be postponed to post-war priorities.

So--at the least, Norway will certainly be as I conceive it, basically an extension of overall British capabilities; its air defense, its basing of both Coastal and Bomber command type aircraft comparable to Britain's. The conservative assumption is a mix of British and American manufactured airframes and engines, possibly ammunition or engines (not top of the line, I don't think Swedish engine manufacture is quite up to Rolls Royce or Pratt & Whitney/Wright standards in terms of supercharged high performance manufacture yet, though if Sweden leans Allied hard enough, later in the war, they might be favored with Allied licensing--but I suspect open-handedness in this will come only at the price of Sweden actually entering as an Ally) imported from Sweden on a cash and carry basis, the main pipeline for Swedish sourced stuff being the railroad into Trondheim.
 
With Norway secured I expect a lot of industrial upgrading to happen in the Trondelag; it has strategic depth against conceivable German attempts to try to invade again and is farther out of range of Luftwaffe strikes, and is an excellent port with its approaches very secure, with good communications to Sweden as well as to the world by sea. Postwar Trondheim might quite rival Oslo as a close second city of Norway.

Can such expanded industry there, or perhaps despite slightly greater strategic risk Oslo, be so developed that Norwegians are making lots of aircraft, tanks, guns, etc? I have little clue actually. My baseline assumptions about what they can do in the war are modest, but it could be between the established aeronautical abilities much upgraded (politically, Norwegian firms will have little trouble getting licenses for the most advanced material they can technically produce; Norway is probably the most committed Ally Britain could have and quite as solidly In and reliable, if not more so, than Britain in Yankee evaluations) and upgrades of her shipyards, I don't want to place any hard upper limits on what they can do.

I would guess no Norwegian shipyard could produce a capital ship, a full sized battleship or big carrier--they might well be able to make their own model of armored escort carriers though.

Armored decks, of the British philosophy of carrier design, are favored in the crowded short range airspace of European coastal waters; even if the Norwegians wind up getting some carriers, small or big, from American shipyards, they will be specifying British type armored decks, unless later in the war they commit to some token support of US-Commonwealth RN initiatives in the Pacific. In the wide waters and long ranges of the Pacific, the US lighter unarmored approach permitted more aircraft, which were conceived by US thinkers as the actual defense of a carrier; God help them if an enemy force managed to get in striking range, but the idea was not to be there to be struck but to get their strikes in first.

I leave it up to the author whether Norwegian naval aviation gets any carriers at all, whether they stick with small ones that can be sustained and possibly even built in Norway, or whether they are gifted with British or American made big ones, all versus relying mainly on sea planes.

If Norway's flying boat works are never upgraded enough to make either license copies or their own homegrown design of heavy flying boats comparable to the Sunderland or American four engine jobs, surely they can anyway maintain them, along with smaller Catalinas or again some Norwegian analog, and perhaps a whole lot of smaller seaplanes too, with floats or boat hulls. The latter can surely operate out of shore bases, and perhaps with new larger seaplane tenders, maybe out on the wider ocean; Catalinas and of course the bigger monsters can operate on the wide ocean quite well, as experience in the Pacific as well as Atlantic demonstrated.

By any route, I do think Norway is eventually going to be a player, at least in token proportion to her relative wealth versus USA and Commonwealth, in the Pacific. Probably not until late in the war to be sure, perhaps not at all until after V-E day, but that might come earlier than OTL--I would guess not by more than a year to be sure, and that is optimistic.

I can't resist an aviation-related suggestion that might be more appealing to the naval-oriented author than I usually have been. I'm thinking of a unique ship design you see.

I would expect that later in the war, around 1943 or so, with the Axis being clearly on the back foot though a long slog is ahead, while Norway won't be asked to join in the Pacific actively until Europe is sorted out, everyone is looking ahead to that hoped for day. Meanwhile the navally canny Norwegians have been spending some time reading reports of the Pacific war as well as their own experiences in the Atlantic/Mediterranean theater--indeed while I don't expect actual Norwegian fleet elements to go "East of Suez" (they'll probably actually sortie via the Panama Canal when the day comes unless some of their ships exceed Panamax size, which I am getting at here, maybe) I do think at least some officers will be detached to RN and USN ships to assist and observe first hand in the Pacific. So--they are learning, with less resistance than the battleship-minded senior USN and RN officers, since Norway did not start the war with any actual battlewagons, that while the battleship in classic form is not totally obsolete by any means (their heavy guns were quite useful for bombardment, vital in island hopping against Japan, and their heavy armor had other uses, and so admirals often continued to use them as flagships) the modern real capital ship is the carrier. And maybe they want and will get some carriers, big or small.

But they like seaplanes, their prewar seaplane tenders have played a big part in their self-salvation, will no doubt continue to play important roles (it always gives me chills to see the names Odin and Loki come up in your accounts, @CV(N)-6!). And one role the heavy battleship armor enables a battleship in WWII carrier combat to play usefully is, a heavy armored platform for massive AA gun installation.

So supposing that in generous Lend-Lease offers, Uncle Sam wants to reward the Norwegians with some top line new capital ships, and a new battleship or two is on offer for a cheap or even basically free price, the Yankees politically appreciating Norway having paid in blood.

But the Norwegians don't actually want a traditional battleship, leaving the shore bombardment mission to the big navies.

However, they do see a use for a big heavy armored flagship, that can take a lot of punishment by naval gun or aerial strike, and dish out very heavy AA cover for other fleet elements clustered near it including their carriers. And replacing the big gun turrets, they devote the capacity to partitioned fuel and ammo and machine shop facilities to make a much glorified seaplane tender, capable of maintaining some big flying boats and a fair number of Catalina types and perhaps even some seaborne small fighter/attack type planes largely afloat.

I am picturing, instead of the big gun turrets, an advanced super-crane, a cherry picker type articulating design, with negative feedback sensor (hydraulic-electric of course) operation, so that a hard coupling to a floating object such as a big 4 engine seaplane of the Sunderland type can bob up and down with the waves bouncing the plane, without putting stress on the plane.

Such a super crane can incorporate lines for fueling and perhaps other fluids (maybe a pressurized hydraulic line to power tools on the aircraft, or of course electric or possibly pneumatic--if such a line is severed it won't be electrically live or spray hydraulic fluid all over--and feature a suspension conveyor system for solid loads such as ammo packs, also to haul wounded crew members back to the ship in litters, etc. So, a big seaplane nudges up near the ship, the crane operator (possibly based on a platform on the business end of the crane) sidles up to a hard mount on the wing center with a hatch in it, locks the sensor-guided feedback control in place, so the crane now bobs up and down and swings with the differential motion of the plane, and crew hook up the fuel lines, and any wounded crew are taken off followed by off-shift aircrew riding the conveyor back to the mother ship while the new relief crew comes aboard, receiving and stowing packets of hardware like ammo where needed, in a quick operation permitting the crane to move on to another plane in pretty short order; the big flying boat heads off on another sortie.

Smaller flying boats can be serviced rapidly the same way; the big crane can also pick up at least the medium and small seaplanes to put them in service bays on deck for more extensive maintenance. I'm wondering if in fact the biggest flying boat types might be lifted up and serviced the same way as needed.

The planes have to be designed for this of course, more or less; small planes can probably be serviced mainly by being fished up onto the deck, pretty much as is, the multi-engine ones would need their fuel line feeds and so forth routed to this central feed, and if they are to be picked up, to have structural reinforcement to let one single strong grip on a standard grapple point safely lift their weight and inertial mass. But after all, an airplane must be suspended from the wing center--seaplanes, flying boat types especially, tend to be high wing jobs, so if the basic wing box is designed or retrofitted with a suitable grip, streamlined in flight under a fabric or light metal hatch, I'd think this would not be a huge design issue, even for retrofitting.

The giant crane (or cranes, redundancy as well as parallel servicing capability seems like a good idea if one can manage it) might also facilitate more rapid transfers of supplies and even aircraft between task force elements; cargo ships with their cargo suitably palletized might sidle up close, get a series of pallets of replenishment cargo including whole aircraft, picked up and placed for processing on the deck, lashed down if the seas are rough, and then the ship can transfer some of this cargo to other task force units such as a flattop or several baby flattops, cruisers, destroyers, etc.

So basically, a heavy armored, huge, deluxe big sister successor of the seaplane tenders really, able to endure punishment during a major battle and still keep on maintaining her brood of seaplanes. This strikes me as the proper flagship of any Norwegian presence in the Pacific, by the time the Norwegians get there the danger of kamikaze strikes is well known so her heavy AA is vital cover to other task force members. In addition to seaplane tending it is also a logistics hub and also, I suppose, a major mount for intensive radar and sonar operations.

So a weird hybrid of Aegis cruiser/seaplane tender/catalyst of more effective and rapid seaborne replenishment. During combat I figure the crane(s) can retract into armored bays to prevent being crippled.

For some reason I want to name it Freya or Vanaheim, maybe Heimdall--Thor does not seem quite right, though certainly among other things Thor is a smith god, and as a seaplane tender it would be among other things a machine shop ship.

Is such a ship possible on the base of an armored battleship hull, within OTL WWII late war displacements? Could it not go as fast or faster than typical battleships? Were late war Allied naval capital ships designed to get through the Panama Canal or were some a lot bigger and if so, would the Norwegians want the Panama Canal capable version, or would they want and be able to handle an even bigger one that has go around the south of Africa or South America to get between the major oceans?

I suspect that even if the war pretty well sticks to OTL timelines overall, the royal Norwegian Navy can see a monster or two of this type put in useful service and come under fire in the Pacific before Japan finally surrenders. Late in the war, the seaplanes would be serving as commerce attack platforms, ASW scouts and attackers, and various auxiliary missions such as search and rescue and airlifting supplies to various scattered bases rapidly.

I could also have some fun trying to envision high performance seaplanes--indeed I have often posted about the possibilities of hydrofoil designs, which might enable most of the performance of a landplane on a platform that can land and take off from the water, and be stationed there...but I suspect such designs would actually come to fruition after the war. This brings up the possibility of a jet seaplane, hopefully less clumsy than the SARO job, perhaps based on a delta type planform serving as a raft --not unlike the Convair Sea Dart or its envisioned subsonic predecessor; the Sea Dart suffered from several design issues that submerged hydrofoils might solve--an early design realized well before the '40s were out would not even attempt sonic speed capability, the Sea Dart's ancestor was to be a blended body form designed as a raft.
 
Norway Naval Aviation Snip
The Norwegians would struggle to man a carrier(even an escort one) and enough escorts. Loki, their seaplane tender, is little more than a moving seaplane base. A cruiser isn't out of the question assuming Norway is cleared and WW2 is similar to OTL, but that's about as big as the RNN will get. I don't have this written enough into the future for the armored seaplane carrier, though a Norwegian contribution in the Pacific isn't super likely.
 
The Norwegians would struggle to man a carrier(even an escort one) and enough escorts. Loki, their seaplane tender, is little more than a moving seaplane base. A cruiser isn't out of the question assuming Norway is cleared and WW2 is similar to OTL, but that's about as big as the RNN will get. I don't have this written enough into the future for the armored seaplane carrier, though a Norwegian contribution in the Pacific isn't super likely.
Why would Norway get involved in the Pacific? They have no stake in the region and have bigger problems closer to home.
 
I could see the Norwegians sending a destroyer squadron and a couple of oilers to serve with the British Pacific Fleet...as CV(N)-6 has said 1944-5, perhaps as early as late 1943

In the 1940-1 time frame I wouldn't get too fancy with aviation, a couple of squadrons of Catalinas would make a great deal of sense and maybe some B-25s....P-38's for fighters if available otherwise P-36's or P-40's
 
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Why would Norway get involved in the Pacific? They have no stake in the region and have bigger problems closer to home.
I think Shevek meant in 1944/1945 if the war is recognizable, they certainly won't do anything of that sort at least as far as I have written
 
A few thoughts in no particular order :
  • Compared to OTL Norway, Denmark is far easier to reinforce for Germany. German forces in the country can be redeployed in Europe almost as fast as if they were in Germany, contrary to OTL Norway (there the time to redeploy was counted in months). While the defensive works will be more extensive than OTL (already pretty extensive, specially with mine fields), I must say that the biggest Danish ports are on the East Coast and on the Islands, not on the more exposed West Coast. So, all in all, ITTL Denmark will suck needed resources for Germany, it won't be on the same scale than OTL Norway.
  • In Norway :
    • The Allies still need to secure Stavanger and Kristiansand. It won't easy since Allied forces will fight at the end of a long logistical tail and the raw terrain favor the defenders, but it's a forgone conclusion with closed logistical link to Germany.
    • Meanwhile, the Allies also need to construct Norway as a defensive base. In the air, it means a decent fighter force, but mostly constructing an early warning based on Chain Home. It also means reconstructing the shore defenses in Southern Norway.
    • As long as those first two steps aren't made, most Allied land forces already there must stay in Norway.
    • As someone said, the UK will try to use Norway to strengthen the blockade of Germany. It means deploying submarines, destroyers and cruisers in the country in support of Norway's navy. That, along with Coastal Command aircraft, will pretty much close the North Sea to German raiders (although an occasional U-Boat can slip by).
    • The infrastructure long logistic will limit Bomber Command from using Norway as an offensive base until probably mi-1941 if you are optimistic and early 1942 if you are not. Until then, I suppose it will be limited to aerial mining and attacking German naval traffic at entrance of the Baltic. Norway is not necessarily closer to Germany, but in a concerted offensive, it force Germany to protect itself from an other direction and further disperse it's defensive assets.
  • In France, the 3 days schedule difference from OTL in the encirclement in Dunkirk can be huge. For example, it can mean that more French forces escaped in land with their heavy equipment. Since during Fall Rot OTL, the French army didn't have enough reserves, those extra forces could mean they hold on the Somme. The 3 days can also mean nothing, or anything in between, including an attrition battle that the German will win, but with far heavier losses than OTL.
  • If France still fall, but put a better show, I think the forces in Norway (1 mountain division and support) will go for Free France. In it self, it's a major change, but the two big questions are (and they are linked) :
    • What does the Marine Nationale do ? Will it bend, fights on or will individual squadrons and units make their on choices ?
    • What do the different colonies do ? Here, French North Africa is the key. If it goes Free French with it's Army, most of the French Empire will follow suite (and the Marine Nationale is also probably on board), but if it is still is pro-Vichy, then you are closer to OTL.
 
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Chapter XXXVIII
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Chapter XXXVIII: The Stress of the Job

Bergen, 15 May
Prime Minister Johan Nygaardsvold’s face was in his hands. On his desk was the latest report of total Norwegian casualties in the war. The number, dead, wounded, and captured, of all Armed Forces combined, was 17,962, while news of Anglo-French defeats in mainland Europe had been received, guaranteeing that Germany wouldn’t be contained. Nygaardsvold, extremely stressed from the past five weeks, was also feeling guilty for his opposition to the bills increasing military funding in the 30’s. While many historians agree that he did well in his peacetime reforms, as well as his wartime leading of the country, that wasn’t how he saw it. Nearly 18,000 Norwegian military personnel alone had suffered, not to mention their families and the civilians caught up in the battles. Nygaardsvold couldn’t continue like this, asking more and more young men to go fight for Norway, which he thought he had failed, though he hadn’t. Sitting next to the casualty report on his desk was a piece of paper with handwritten reasons for his resignation, which he would announce at the next meeting of Storting.

There was an uproar in Storting when Nygaardsvold announced his resignation. King Haakon attempted to resist, stating that Norway needed a functioning government, and Nygaardsvold answered that there were many Norwegians capable of taking his position, and he wasn’t the right man to see the war out. Also, Norway was in a somewhat stable position.

“Prime Minister, you’ve done a great job. The people are behind you, we believe in you. Norway is winning here, and you’ve overseen that. I think I speak for most of the Storting when I say that you have our full confidence, and shouldn’t resign.” Johan Nilsen said.

“Mr. Nilsen, thank you for your kind words, but I can’t continue to be the Prime Minister of Norway during this war. We are asking thousands of our young men to risk their lives to fight for our country, and many are giving their lives on the front lines. So far, at least 25,962 of them are killed, wounded, or captured, and the war is far from over. I can’t keep asking them to do that. Mr. Nilsen, I limited your Neutrality Bill two years ago, and voted against the Modernization Movement. If the Neutrality Bill had been larger, which it might have been if I didn’t threaten to not pass it, we might have a much easier war, with fewer dead. I simply don’t feel that I am the right man to continue to hold this office for the rest of the war. Thank you.”


16 May, 20:47 hours
“Carl, I’m not Prime Minister material,” Nilsen shook his head. “You should find someone else, maybe yourself, you’ve done this before.”

“Johan, we can’t afford to have a whole thing trying to find a Prime Minister. The country is at war! You are immensely popular because of your warning about the Germans, as well as making the military strong enough to do what it’s doing today! The people will back you, much of the Storting will back you!” Hambro replied angrily.

“It’s not that I’m not popular, I’m not the right man for the job!”

“Why aren’t you the right man for the job? You successfully got yourself enough votes for the Modernization Movement, which requires you to be able to work well with people to get their support, and you successfully led the Movement to fruition!”

“So I got a radical bill passed. Being the Prime Minister of a country at war for her very survival means you need to be competent enough to do the job. I have no military experience outside of my research for the Modernization Movement and what I know of the current war. I’m not more intelligent than average, and I’m not a leader. Get someone else.”

Hambro shook his head. Nilsen was more scared of himself and the sheer responsibility of the office in these times than anything else. “So, you’re scared because you think you aren’t up to it?”

“I guess you could put it that way.”

“Then list who is up for it.”

“Nygaardsvold. You were right when we talked last month, he is better than I’d thought. He shouldn’t have resigned, he was doing well, and he needs to realize that he did allow the Neutrality Act through even though he opposed it at the time. It’s not his fault that the Germans invaded, and it’s their fault that he has to send those young men to die, not his. He is better than he believes.”

“Johan, that’s what most of us think about you. We think you are a good MP, who has shown flashes of leadership when getting votes, who thinks he isn’t good enough. Thing is, there aren’t a ton of other options. You are hugely popular because of your pre-war actions, people will listen to you and respect you. You don’t have to make all the decisions, there are the cabinet, advisors, and military commanders for that. But the government needs a head, and the votes are there for you to be it. If you screw up, we’ll find somebody else. You don’t have to be an exceptional Prime Minister, you just have to do your best, and if you do, I think you’ll be surprised at what you can do.” Hambro checked his watch. “It’s late, old men like us should be getting home. I’ll let you sleep on it, and if you don’t want the job tomorrow, we’ll find someone else.”

Johan nodded at this, and they shook hands. “Until tomorrow, my friend,” Hambro nodded.


22:01 hours
Nilsen stared at the ceiling of the bedroom in his temporary residence in Bergen, thinking about the opportunity laying before him. He could be Prime Minister of Norway. He personally didn’t think he was up for it, but Hambro, President of Storting, seemed to think so, as did several other members who had attempted to persuade him. Hambro also seemed to believe that there were more than enough MP’s who believed the same thing to put him in office. Johan had led the Modernization Movement, and he did seem to have a good amount of support. Why not accept the nomination if everyone thought he was worthy of the position? Johan grumbled to himself. That damned persistent Hambro. He picked up the phone near his bed, something that every MP had now, and dialed the President of Storting.

“President Hambro,” came a sleepy voice.

“This is Nilsen. Damn you, Carl. I’ll do it.”
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Just a quick clarification on dates: last chapter went forward a few weeks in terms of fighting near Oslo, but the current date we are on is May 15. In the next few chapters, we will be moving forward at a decent pace, however.
 
I'd have thought maybe envoys from British Labour might have encouraged Nygaardsvold to stay on, but of course OTL Chamberlain did not resign and the National Government involving Labour as well as the Tories (and some Liberals IIRC) under Churchill form until France fell and British forces were all withdrawn from the Continent, so at this point the formal Government of Britain is still a purely Tory show, and any such Opposition envoys might be taken as less than Loyal opposition.

I'm hoping the author does not have a generally partisan axe to grind against the Scandinavian socialists, aside from my sentiments in the matter, realistically they retained high legitimacy for generations after the war; they are not going to be a lot less popular despite Nygaardsvold's regrets. If anything, his resignation is a suitable atonement for the "sins" of pacifism.

Remember that Churchill OTL pushed for the "post-war" general election in the UK to be earlier rather than later--it had been agreed when the emergency National Government formed that elections would be held for a regular one after the war, but it was not clear in 1945 if that meant the war with Japan too or not. Churchill and other Tories reckoned they would benefit as Conservatives if they gave Labour as little time as possible to campaign and so interpreted it narrowly as meaning V-E day. Then the Services Vote, the special effort to enable all Britain's world wide deployed troops and sailors to vote, decisively tipped the outcome--to Labour. Who knows if it would have been better or worse for the Tories if they had waited to V-J Day...but the moral here is that patriotic, hard fighting soldiers and sailors were perfectly capable of deciding Labour was their best bet, any admiration of Churchill or appreciation of his services notwithstanding.

In Norway it is a bit different--the socialists were the government before the invasion, and so any notions the British forces had that they should try something different would work the other way among Norwegians. But I think there was a plain logic to voting for a (patriotic as opposed to subversive) left party for such men--they were overwhelmingly working class after all, and the experiences of service members after demobilization after the Great War was in recent living memory. In Norway, I believe the socialists delivered a decent and popular response to general Depression era challenges, and the soldiers and sailors are not going to be hostile to more of the same postwar.

Nilsen is a good man for the job now; I hope he has less animosity to his more leftist compatriots than Churchill had for his (and I expect Nilsen does, he is not Churchill, though he might be the best guy to work with Churchill in the next few years).

In moderation, maintaining a fairly large national defense when there are objective threats is not bad democratic socialism anyway, or anyway good social democracy.

Of course I am assuming Churchill will succeed to 10 Downing in all probability. Even if Chamberlain were not disgraced by the Fall of France, he was dying--even if he were not dying, FoF was a hell of a bitter pill to swallow. Churchill is the obvious successor, as he had been the leading advocate of vigorous opposition to the Nazi regime throughout the prewar period. He might fall down some stairs or some particular aspect of the collapse of the Entente on the Continent tar him, but I think it would take something major to derail him from his OTL course.

Note that when I accuse Churchill of animosity, this is bearing in mind that OTL he was very very good at masking his feelings with diplomacy when he felt expedience demanded this. (He was more forthcoming and frank in his bile against the Irish and the Indians). Recent biographies have highlighted his resentments of all kinds of people, such as the Americans, that he largely hid for pragmatic reasons all his life and for generations after his death remained obscure--the recent revelations are drawn from candid sources that were very private at the time, as in conversations with the King. Of course he despised Bolshevism but famously he worked well with Stalin in the war; it was less known how much he resented American domination, because he had to work with the Yankees indefinitely. Churchill then would by no means fail to play nicely enough with a socialist run Norwegian government, but I am quite sure he'd be privately much more pleased to work with Nielsen.

The Americans of course will be more comfortable with a leader like Nielsen than any socialist. It is pretty good for Norway this happens then, I just hope people aren't reading it as "socialists suck." Realistic Norwegian voters would repudiate any such inference! They were wrong to be so extremely oblivious to the threat the Reich posed them OTL, but not I think wrong across the board.
 
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