Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL

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Chapter XXIX: Setbacks at Sola

Spooner brought Repulse inside of 10,000 yards to be sure of his target, and hit it more accurately. Repulse’s 4-inch guns fired starshells to illuminate the airfield as well. However, in bringing Repulse in so close, Spooner exposed her to the 21cm guns guarding the entrance to Stavanger, which immediately fired on her. Repulse inflicted damage on the airfield, but then the Germans found the range. Repulse was hit three times in four minutes by the old guns. He main belt defeated one shell, her deck another, but one shot punched through the 6-inch upper belt and detonated near her for funnel uptake. A 15cm shell destroyed the aft triple 4-inch mount and detonated a starshell that the crew was loading, starting a fire in the area of the mount.

Recognizing his mistake, Spooner maneuvered the ship to open up the range, still firing on Sola Airfield. Two consecutive 21cm shells pierced the 1-inch deck armor over Repulse’s boilers as she turned, damaging five boilers as they crashed through the ship. .....

When dawn came, Repulse was near Langevag, in sight of the coast, slowly moving north, the five destroyers covering her. As soon as it was light, 20 Ju 88 bombers roared into the air from Sola, carrying 250 kg bombs....

The Ju 88’s were now almost on top of Repulse, and they began dropping their payloads. The twenty aircraft hit Repulse six times, and near missed her five times.
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On both the coastal guns and the JU-88s that is ungodly accurate.

The coastal guns are being operated by gunners who had not trained on those guns, in the dark, firing at flashes. I don't recall if the Norwegian gunners disabled some of their fire control equipment before being captured, but this is incredible shooting by a scratch team of gunners working on equipment that they are not familiar with in low light conditions.

Now the divebombers get a 50% close or hit rate against a target that is well escorted, with some fighter support that has broken up formations and can steam at 20+ knots. The Luftwaffe at this time had no dedicated anti-shipping dive-bombing units. In OTL, the RN lost 4 destroyers to air attacks off of Dunkirk over 9 days where there was minimal fighter cover and restricted maneuvering space.

I can see the story telling logic of keeping SOLA open for the Germans, but they are not rolling 6's here, they are rolling triple 6's several times in a row, in my opinion.
 
On the positive side of things Repulse will probably get her single purpose triple 4" mounts swapped out for DP 4"twin mounts while she's in dockyard hands
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
In the sense of realism, I like the turn in German fortunes, as so far the Norwegians & Brits have benefitted from TTL changes.

On Repulse & Captain Spooner, I think he has been treated harshly. The objective was to deny Sola to the Luftwaffe. In his opinion - and he was the man on the spot - he had to close with the enemy to achieve this. If the objective was not worth the cost of a BC out of commission, then frankly the BC should never have been sent in the first place.
 
On both the coastal guns and the JU-88s that is ungodly accurate.

The coastal guns are being operated by gunners who had not trained on those guns, in the dark, firing at flashes. I don't recall if the Norwegian gunners disabled some of their fire control equipment before being captured, but this is incredible shooting by a scratch team of gunners working on equipment that they are not familiar with in low light conditions.

Now the divebombers get a 50% close or hit rate against a target that is well escorted, with some fighter support that has broken up formations and can steam at 20+ knots. The Luftwaffe at this time had no dedicated anti-shipping dive-bombing units. In OTL, the RN lost 4 destroyers to air attacks off of Dunkirk over 9 days where there was minimal fighter cover and restricted maneuvering space.

I can see the story telling logic of keeping SOLA open for the Germans, but they are not rolling 6's here, they are rolling triple 6's several times in a row, in my opinion.
They weren't aiming for any specific point of the ship, and the range is fairly short, under 10,000 yards. Notice, the Allies have gotten some luck as well (Warspite disabled Bismarck's fc at 27,000+ yards, Johan Nilsen was born, the Red Scare got the bill passed, etc), so the Germans were in for some of their own.
On the positive side of things Repulse will probably get her single purpose triple 4" mounts swapped out for DP 4"twin mounts while she's in dockyard hands
Probably, I wasn't really planning on focusing on a refit.
In the sense of realism, I like the turn in German fortunes, as so far the Norwegians & Brits have benefitted from TTL changes.
That's what I was angling for, trying to not make this a wank.
On Repulse & Captain Spooner, I think he has been treated harshly. The objective was to deny Sola to the Luftwaffe. In his opinion - and he was the man on the spot - he had to close with the enemy to achieve this. If the objective was not worth the cost of a BC out of commission, then frankly the BC should never have been sent in the first place.
Actually, Repulse only fired a couple of salvoes before Spooner realized 21cm shells were raining down from close range, she did just fine from further out. He was instructed to stay out of coastal gun range, he didn't, and now Repulse will be in the yard for a few months at least. This was a 'run south during the night, bombard the airfield from a safe distance, run back to Bergen' mission, and he failed.
 
Yikes looks like the British got some hurt laid on them, a cruiser and battlecruiser fairly heavily damaged. Either way though, the writing is on the wall for the Germans no matter how much damage they can inflict.
 
Spooner brought Repulse inside of 10,000 yards to be sure of his target, and hit it more accurately. Repulse’s 4-inch guns fired starshells to illuminate the airfield as well. However, in bringing Repulse in so close, Spooner exposed her to the 21cm guns guarding the entrance to Stavanger,
Looking at a map does this actually work?
1587224920526.png

- red arrow is the entrance to harbour
- circle is about 10,000m out from airfield

Would the coastal guns covering the entrance even cover the likley bombardment point and even then it would be a far longer range as they are to the north?
I would think that any 21cm guns would be far to the north so at least 15-20km?
 
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Looking at a map does this actually work?
View attachment 540213
- red arrow is the entrance to harbour
- circle is about 10,000m out from airfield

Would the coastal guns covering the entrance even cover the likley bombardment point and even then it would be a far longer range as they are to the north?
I would think that any 21cm guns would be far to the north so at least 15-20km?
Screen Shot 2020-04-18 at 12.16.29 PM.png

Okay, leftmost point is where Repulse started firing
Bottommost point is where Spooner turned
The lower of the two middle points shows where Spooner turned
The topmost point at sea is where Repulse was hit by the batteries(topmost point).
 
Okay, leftmost point is where Repulse started firing
Bottommost point is where Spooner turned
The lower of the two middle points shows where Spooner turned
The topmost point at sea is where Repulse was hit by the batteries(topmost point).
That's still hitting a ship at night with untrained Infantry crews at 15+km (and firing past island blocking the view)..... and Repulse would not want to close the islands (4) as they would block the shooting at low angles to the east, really she needs to stay out to fire over the land? I think she would stay out at orbiting 1-2 (she would also not want to risk mines in shallow water or simply running aground at night) and simply let the shooting disperse the 15" was so accurate that she would want to let them scatter over a dispersed target like an airfield anyway?

Note that your point 3 and 4 are far closer than 10,000yards IMO more like 7-8 (and really close to shore for high speed night running)?

Note that Repulse's escorts could cover her with smoke as soon as the Germans start shooting as well to block the guns as they would anyway be in position to defend her from say a Uboat coming out from the port? Or just have say a spotting Swordfish (or what ever she used) to drop a flare close to the batteries to blind them assuming Repulse would have one up to spot fall of shot as it could simply fly back north to Bergan so she would not even have to slow down pick it up?

Anyway enjoying the story keep it up please!
 
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The twenty aircraft hit Repulse six times, and near missed her five times.

I hate to say it but this is silly. The Luftwaffe (largely incapable of hitting shipping at this point in the war) exceeds the hit rate of the elite attack crews of the Kido Butai hitting a densely packed harbour full of motionless ships without serious air defence. You are likely to get somewhere between 0-2 hits or near misses against a maneuvering warship.
 
I hate to say it but this is silly. The Luftwaffe (largely incapable of hitting shipping at this point in the war) exceeds the hit rate of the elite attack crews of the Kido Butai hitting a densely packed harbour full of motionless ships without serious air defence. You are likely to get somewhere between 0-2 hits or near misses against a maneuvering warship.
I edited it. Not my best chapter.
 
Chapter XXX
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Chapter XXX: A Controversial Decision

ORP Orzel, 14:00 hours, 17 April
Jan Grudzinski, commander of ORP Orzel, a Free Polish submarine, had had a very good few weeks. Towards the end of Orzel’s previous patrol, the submarine had sunk the transport Rio de Janeiro, full of German soldiers. The sub had been scheduled for a refit, but with the need to stop German supplies to Norway, she’d been sent to patrol off Oslo as soon as she was done reprovisioning in Scotland. Now, she was beneath the waters of the Skagerrak, waiting for the next convoy. Raising the periscope, Grudzinski spotted ships in the distance, coming south through the Oslofjord. Orzel moved to a better attack position, her twelve torpedo tubes loaded with Mark VIII torpedoes.

The convoy consisted of the old pre-dreadnought Schleswig-Holstein, withdrawing to Germany for repairs to Anton turret after unwisely engaging Oscarsborg Fortress, seven troop and cargo ships, an R-Boat, two M-class minesweepers, and a Type 37 torpedo boat, so desperate was the Kriegsmarine. A Ju 88 escorted the convoy, which was met by a patrolling Type 35 torpedo boat before entering the open sea, where Orzel lay in wait. The ships being escorted were mostly empty of supplies, but losing any of them would be a blow to Germany’s ever-shrinking merchant fleet, which Allied submarines were feasting on, with 20 non-warships sunk in the last four days alone.

Grudzinski ordered firing solutions for two of the merchants and Schleswig-Holstein, which Orzel had blockaded in Danzig 7 months prior before fleeing to Estonia and then the UK. The first torpedoes left their tubes at 14:47, the bow four heading for a large troop transport, two from a trainable mount on their way to Schleswig-Holstein, and the second pair from the trainable mount on course towards a cargo ship. As a precaution, Grudzinski took the submarine down 8 meters. Two explosions were recorded in the ship’s log before a minesweeper depth charged the submarine with no luck.

The first explosion was a torpedo sentencing the troopship to a watery grave. The second hit impacted Schleswig-Holstein, the ship that fired the first shots in the current war, almost perfectly amidships. Orzel surfaced a half hour later to see Schleswig-Holstein with a heavy list, lowering boats into the water, and the stern of the troopship descending into the sea behind her and to the west. The picture Grudzinski took through the periscope is an iconic photo of the Allied submarine campaign against German convoys to Norway, as well as the Norwegian Campaign itself; a Google Search of the latter shows the picture as the fourth from the top. The sinking was also meaningful for the Poles because Schleswig-Holstein had begun the invasion of their country when she fired on Westerplatte.


Berlin, 7:53 hours, 18 April
Eric Raeder waited outside Hitler’s office turning his cap in his shaking hands. The Kriegsmarine was in ruins. Total losses for the campaign were 1 battleship, 1 pre-dreadnought, 2 heavy cruisers, 5 light cruisers, 18 destroyers, 10 torpedo boats, 8 minesweepers, 2 training ships, 5 R-Boats, 1 S-Boat tender, 12 S-Boats, and 8 U-Boats. Two battleships, one heavy cruiser, and several U-Boats and torpedo boats required lengthy repairs. Raeder was very concerned with his future, for both his career and his family.

Raeder was told to enter the office. Hitler was sitting behind his desk, going over paperwork.

“You wished to see me, mein Fuhrer?”

“Yes, Raeder. Sit.” Hitler took a breath. “Raeder, what is wrong with the Kriegsmarine, all the money the Reich poured into it, all the great battleships and cruisers, and it is now virtually destroyed? Why did we waste money on these expensive ships that have been nothing but cannon fodder?”

Raeder could see Hitler was working himself into a frenzy. “Mein Fuhrer, the Royal Navy is much stronger than the Kriegsmarine. If we had waited until 1945, when our great construction program would complete-”

“What?! Those expensive ships would’ve been blown out of the water too?! The Reich began the war NOW, and the Kriegsmarine should’ve been ready for real combat NOW!!” bellowed Hitler. “Your great battleships did NOTHING, your commanders are incompetent, your U-Boats have yet to sink anything greater than a DESTROYER, and most of your operations as part of Weserubung, which YOU pushed for, were failures!! Our greatest, easiest victory came at Stavanger, which was an attack carried out by the Luftwaffe and Heer!! Those two services have performed competently, while the Kriegsmarine has blundered about, losing ships to coastal guns, the tiny Norwegian Navy, obsolete BIPLANES, then sending a too small force to resupply Trondheim, which was promptly sunk by the Royal Navy WITHOUT CASUALTIES!! Next, those Allies start massacring our supply ships, which your great Kriegsmarine has done a terrible job of protecting!! WHY HAS THE KRIEGSMARINE LET GERMANY DOWN?!!” Hitler bellowed, red faced, now on his feet.

Raeder was pale. This was bad, this was very bad. “Mein Fuhrer, the Luftwaffe hasn’t provided sufficient air cover for our convoy-”

“The Luftwaffe has done more for the Reich than the Kriegsmarine!! I will no longer waste resources on the Kriegsmarine!! As of now, all ships larger than destroyers will be sent to the scrapyards, and destroyers and submarines will be limited in number!! The Reich has no need for the Kriegsmarine in its quest to unite the Aryan Race!!”

“Mein Fuhrer, you are making a mistake! Just give the Kriegsmarine time to complete Tirpitz, Eugen, and some destroyers, and repair our damaged ships, and it will redeem itself!”

“No!!” Hitler shouted. “The ships are useless if they can’t win battles, and they can’t win battles!! By the end of the week, I want all ships larger than destroyers in the scrapyard!!”

Raeder played his final card. “I cannot allow this. I therefore tender my resignation from the Kriegsmarine.”


By 25 April, a plan for the Kriegsmarine was in place. Schlesien and Leipzig would be retained as training ships, the destroyers and torpedo boats under construction would be completed, 20 U-Boats would be built each year until further notice, and everything larger than the above ships would be scrapped. This was one of the largest effects of the Norwegian Campaign.
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Grudzinski ordered firing solutions for two of the merchants and Schleswig-Holstein, which Orzel had blockaded in Danzig 7 months prior before fleeing to Estonia and then the UK. The first torpedoes left their tubes at 14:47, the bow four heading for a large troop transport, two from a trainable mount on their way to Schleswig-Holstein, and the second pair from the trainable mount on course towards a cargo ship. As a precaution, Grudzinski took the submarine down 8 meters. Two explosions were recorded in the ship’s log before a minesweeper depth charged the submarine with no luck.

The first explosion was a torpedo sentencing the troopship to a watery grave. The second hit impacted Schleswig-Holstein, the ship that fired the first shots in the current war, almost perfectly amidships. Orzel surfaced a half hour later to see Schleswig-Holstein with a heavy list, lowering boats into the water, and the stern of the troopship descending into the sea behind her and to the west. The picture Grudzinski took through the periscope is an iconic photo of the Allied submarine campaign against German convoys to Norway, as well as the Norwegian Campaign itself; a Google Search of the latter shows the picture as the fourth from the top. The sinking was also meaningful for the Poles because Schleswig-Holstein had begun the invasion of their country when she fired on Westerplatte.

Damn, the Poles really got quite a bit of revenge here. Sinking the ship that basically started the war against Poland is quite the accomplishment.
 
What the bloody hell is Hitler smoking? Does he wants the north sea to be a British lake?
Indeed the mere presence of Tirpitz and the twins would have required the RN to retain most of its fast capital ships in the Home Fleet. This is really bad news for the Italians and later the Japanese. It's also really good news for the RN since it means it can give its ships more dockyard time than otl and really only has 2 navies to worry about other than U-boats and not many of them at that and the occasional light surface vessel.
 
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Chapter XXX: A Controversial Decision


Raeder played his final card. “I cannot allow this. I therefore tender my resignation from the Kriegsmarine.”


By 25 April, a plan for the Kriegsmarine was in place. Schlesien and Leipzig would be retained as training ships, the destroyers and torpedo boats under construction would be completed, 20 U-Boats would be built each year until further notice, and everything larger than the above ships would be scrapped. This was one of the largest effects of the Norwegian Campaign.
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Well, at least he was not arrested and tortured or executed
 
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