Design WWI peace treaties harsh enough to prevent WWII

I dunno, if you want to break the countries go after not only the present but the future. Deprive them of their institutions of higher learning and force the intelligensia to adopt other languages to be able to learn about medicine, engineering, or law. German became a widely studied language in the late 19th and early 20th centuries for just this reason, now put it in reverse. Control communication, trade, and make your presence visible for the occupants to see. Make the price of defeat so horrific that in the future they will either never try again or have to pay an even sterner price.

Sending Berlin to Poland will not be acceptable. Germany will probably fight on rather than permit her capital to be taken by a non-existant nation. But you can shatter the country like glass on rock and they would have to deal with it. Besides, that many ethnic Germans in Poland might cause serious trouble for Poland itself along the lines of a super-Prussia in a generation or two...
 

Rex Mundi

Banned
A good place to start would be to eliminate all the clauses for having Germany pay for Allied soldier pensions, which were unfair, and formed a major part of the reparations. Instead of taking food from a starving country, have the German's shoulder half the costs of reparations, to be calculated as a "fee-for-service," reparations calculation; ie, Germany will pay half for each bridge rebuilt, etc. Eliminate the clauses which involve confiscation of productive goods like merchant marine or fishing boats, or any other type of industrial productive goods. Put fair plebiscites in all the areas where there weren't plebiscites, or had rigged plebiscites, and let Austria join Germany if she wishes to. Eliminate the war guilt clause. Apply disarmament clauses to all states, not Germany, setting military limits to, say, .5% of the population of every country, and setting no limits on the types of weapons Germany can develop, unless they will be applied to all countries. Do the same for the Navy, but along the lines of the Washington Treaty. Eliminate conscription in all countries.

The premise didn't involve Germany winning the war.
 
I dunno, if you want to break the countries go after not only the present but the future. Deprive them of their institutions of higher learning and force the intelligensia to adopt other languages to be able to learn about medicine, engineering, or law. German became a widely studied language in the late 19th and early 20th centuries for just this reason, now put it in reverse. Control communication, trade, and make your presence visible for the occupants to see. Make the price of defeat so horrific that in the future they will either never try again or have to pay an even sterner price.

Sending Berlin to Poland will not be acceptable. Germany will probably fight on rather than permit her capital to be taken by a non-existant nation. But you can shatter the country like glass on rock and they would have to deal with it. Besides, that many ethnic Germans in Poland might cause serious trouble for Poland itself along the lines of a super-Prussia in a generation or two...

Some of that is part of the price for defeat. The idea of Berlin going to Poland is for Poland to Polandize them or you would have a German diaspora the likes that the Jews went through. Plus forcing them to capture Lenin and hand him to the Whites is to set back communism a couple generations.

Its also why the Jews get back the Holy Land (they even get the Temple Mount in the deal amd the Muslims have to leave everything behind)
 
For all country, do mean "all countries, period" or "all CP counties so Germany doesn't get all the blames". Because if it's the former it's not an armistice for twenty years, but only for five.

All countries, period, the idea is that the powers don't fight another war. One country having a gigantic advantage over the other is not conducive to this goal. All countries basically being demilitarized is.

The premise didn't involve Germany winning the war.

It was more wishful thinking in the sort of treaty which would prevent any future war and ensure the best possible post-war scenario. That post wasn't a response to the OP, but to msmarchhare. Obviously, under a German defeat, completely ASB.

Some of that is part of the price for defeat. The idea of Berlin going to Poland is for Poland to Polandize them or you would have a German diaspora the likes that the Jews went through. Plus forcing them to capture Lenin and hand him to the Whites is to set back communism a couple generations.

Its also why the Jews get back the Holy Land (they even get the Temple Mount in the deal amd the Muslims have to leave everything behind)

Polandization of any of the territories in the east, barring the ethnic cleansing of some twenty million people, is unlikely to occur. Same goes for the Rhineland.
 
They simply wouldn't sign it and the Allies would have to restart what has now become a war of annihilation.

And no armed forces, how are the successor states supposed to deal with the meRcenaries, FreikoRps and revolutionaries that abound at this time?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Regarding the OP, here's my take:


All of Germany east of the Oder except for Memel, as well as the portion of Upper Silesia southwest of the Oder, is annexed by Poland.
Memel is annexed by Lithuania.
Eupen-Malmedy and the part of the Rhineland north of the fiftieth parallel North is annexed by Belgium.
Schleswig-Holstein, as well as all of Hamburg, is annexed by Denmark.
Alsace-Lorraine, the Saar, and the part of the Rhineland south of the fiftieth parallel North is annexed by France.
Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemburg become independent.

You have essentially eliminated a unified Germany for all intents and purposes, leaving only a rump state. That would work - but only if the War ended in a total German defeat with Allied troops dictating terms in the bombed out Reichstag. If you want to extend the war into 1919/1920 with hundreds of thousands more casualties, have at it.

Germany pays an indemnity of 500 million marks over a period of up to 50 years. Until the 500 million marks are paid in full, all German land west of the Weser will be occupied by the Allies. If Germany falls behind on its payments, the area between the Weser and the Elbe will also be occupied by the Allies. In the event of Germany falling behind on its payments, all public or private property owned by Germans and not necessary to the German people will be considered forfeit and subject to seizure by the Allies as payment.

Forget reparations. The purpose of victory is to dismember the German Empire (essentially undo 1871) and eliminate for all time the possibility of Germany making trouble again. Just after WW2 the Allies will be free to seize whatever they want anyway. A "Germany" to pay reparations should no longer exist. Having acheived that, no reason to further antagonize Germans thru draconian reparations. Perhaps the treaty should be more specific and lable Prussia as the main entity subject to reparations

Germany will formally apologise for starting the war.

Not too different from Versailles, plus it is a statement that is not true.

The German armed forces are henceforth disbanded.

Yup, obvious. But if one purpose of the treaty is to eliminate any possibility of a united Germany ever causing trouble again, it would be wise to allow the sucessor states (Bayern, rump Prussia, etc) field military forces in the context of a NATO-like alliance with Britain and France.

AUSTRIA-HUNGARY

Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, and Austria shall become separate nations.
Galicia will be annexed by Poland.
All Hungarian territory east of the Tisza will be annexed by Romania.
The Tyrol will be annexed by Italy.
Vorarlberg will be annexed by Switzerland.
Austria and Hungary each pay an indemnity of 500 million krones over a period of up to 50 years. In the event of Austria or Hungary falling behind on its payments, all public or private property owned by Austrians and Hungarians and not necessary to the Austrian or Hungarian people will be considered forfeit and subject to seizure by the Allies as payment.
The Austrian and Hungarian armed forces are henceforth disbanded.

Disagree with most of this. Just let things evolve in the same way NATO let things evolve in the dissolution of Yugoslavia and the USSR. These events will ensure that a powerful "Austria-Hungary" to threaten the peace never rises again. Hungary is the most likely state to cause trouble, but Hungary will never be Germany in terms of power.

BULGARIA

All Bulgarian territory south of the Maritsa will be annexed by Greece.
All of Dobruja will be annexed by Romania.
Bulgaria pays an indemnity of 500 million leva over a period of up to 50 years. In the event of Bulgaria falling behind on its payments, all public or private property owned by Bulgarians and not necessary to the Bulgarian people will be considered forfeit and subject to seizure by the Allies as payment.
The Bulgarian armed forces are henceforth disbanded.

Most of this is really not necessary. Bulgaria opportunistically joined the CP and actually jumped ship before the end. I'd go with essentially a white peace as in OTL.

THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE

Armenia, Palestine, Syria, Hejaz, Iraq, Asir, Yemen, and Kurdistan will become independent.
All Ottoman territory west of the thirtieth meridian East will be annexed by Greece.
The Ottoman Empire pays an indemnity of 500 million lira over a period of up to 50 years. In the event of the Ottoman Empire falling behind on its payments, all public or private property owned by Turks and not necessary to the Turkish people will be considered forfeit and subject to seizure by the Allies as payment.
The Ottoman armed forces are henceforth disbanded.

Again, the Ottoman Empire opportunistically joined the CP. Like A-H, it is unlikely an "Ottoman Empire" to pay reparations will survive. I'm fine with the allies taking over mandates for the non-Turkish successor states, but don't automatically assume they are granted independence...this is just not going to happen in the world of 1920. Let Greece and Turkey settle their differences as they wish (ie: a small war), and if Turkey wins, too bad for Greece. Of all the defeated CP powers, I'd be inclined to go easy on Turkey.
 
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The only way you could successfully dismember Germany post-war is if Germany is forcibly occupied. Under no other circumstances would the German government accept such terms; if the Allies presented that as the starting point in negotiations the German government would have walked out and prepared for war to the knife hilt and the last ditch. And I doubt the Allies had the means to do that in 1918 without seeing some serious problems at home.
 
Yeah, good luck with Greece running Eastern Rumelia Mk.2 without ethnic cleansing, not to mention having to hold down Western Turkey.
 
GERMANY


  • All of Germany east of the Oder except for Memel, as well as the portion of Upper Silesia southwest of the Oder, is annexed by Poland.
  • Memel is annexed by Lithuania.
  • Eupen-Malmedy and the part of the Rhineland north of the fiftieth parallel North is annexed by Belgium.
  • Schleswig-Holstein, as well as all of Hamburg, is annexed by Denmark.
  • Alsace-Lorraine, the Saar, and the part of the Rhineland south of the fiftieth parallel North is annexed by France.
  • Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemburg become independent.
  • Germany pays an indemnity of 500 million marks over a period of up to 50 years. Until the 500 million marks are paid in full, all German land west of the Weser will be occupied by the Allies. If Germany falls behind on its payments, the area between the Weser and the Elbe will also be occupied by the Allies. In the event of Germany falling behind on its payments, all public or private property owned by Germans and not necessary to the German people will be considered forfeit and subject to seizure by the Allies as payment.
  • Germany will formally apologise for starting the war.
  • The German armed forces are henceforth disbanded.
I think it is not impossible that some of the more extremist French politicians or strategists might have wished something like this (with the exception that the 500 million Marks that you write about is a much, much smaller figure than the various OTL figures, which were measured in billions, not millions).
It is doubtful weather the British, Commonwealth or US politicians would have backed plans like this, they are directly contrary to Wilson's Fourteen Points.
If, for some reasons they are willing to enforce such a plan, it will cost them millions of dead soldiers in addition to the OTL dead, but it is not totally impossible to enforce. If the financial demands are equally harsh as the territorial ones (in contrast to your own figures, which may be so low only by mistake), there probably will be guerrilla activity in all Allied occupied areas.

The various steps to dismember Germany all help to prevent Germany from being wealthy enough to pay substantial reparations and from being a viable trade partner to its neighbors.

All plans to make various German states or territories "independent" are total non-starters, quite apart from the fact that you make Baden-Württemberg independent, a state that was founded only in 1952. Germans do feel themselves as Germans, no matter in which state they live.
 
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