Design the best FAA fighter to be in service by Jan 1940

hipper

Banned
True, but that doesn't make the Albacore a good plane, it just means the RN was limited as to what it could do and had to avoid situations where serious opposition was likely.

No dive bomber or any other type of naval attack aircraft could survive serious opposition so the point is moot, other than that the Albacore could carry twice the bombload, further than the dauntless, (slightly slower)

What proportion of the attack sorties flown by these 3 aircraft involved the traditional dive bombing attack profile of a dive at greater than say 60 degrees? Was it something like 50% or closer to 5-10%?

That’s kind of a major research project however at Taranto torpedo and dive bombers were split 11:10
 
That’s kind of a major research project however at Taranto torpedo and dive bombers were split 11:10

That was one of my biggest problems with the attack (which was brilliant..but) the attacking force had far too few torpedo carrying aircraft for the job in hand

Given that on 8th July 1940 it took 6 attacking aircraft from HMS Hermes attacking the Richelieu at Dakar to get 1 torpedo hit - I am not sure why 11 torpedo armed aircraft could be expected to get more than 2 hits in total on the 5 targeted Italian Battleships.

Surely the prize was the Littorio and Vittorio Veneto and possible the 3 heavy Crusiers in the outer harbour - with bonus points for the rebuilt battleships

So ether more torpedo carrying aircraft (more aircraft!) which implies 1 or more extra carriers involved or those 11 aircraft exclusively targeting the Littorio and Vittorio Veneto.

If another aircraft carrier was used such as Ark Royal (instead of conducting Operation Crack the attack on Cagliari at the same time) - her Skuas could have been the Flare carriers - along with a secondary role of bombing the Heavy crusiers while her Swordfish (which I understand to be 28 at the time) and those other 10 From Illustrious 21 Swordfish now all carrying torpedoes would allow 49 torpedo bombers to take part in the attack.

Make sure that Littorio and Vittorio Veneto each get 12 each from the best 2 squadrons (to ensure at least 2 hits on each ship) and then split up the rest of the attacking force (25 Aircraft) among the remaining Battleships.

Then get RAF aircraft to do a bit of 'gardening' (air dropped mines) outside of the harbour to hopefully catch any ships that try to 'flee' the next morning

But I digress
 
Of course the RN loved a TSR that can dive bomb, it gives you flexibility with the always-limited number of carrier aircraft.
Just where were all those targets the RN didnt attack with dive bombers anyway?

All the Axis convoys in the Med from Malta and North Africa; they used Blenheim bombers at wavetop height with 30% loss rates and used Swordfish as night torpedo strike using flares as back-light illuminating. They also didn't dive bomb the S & G during the Channel Dash.

That’s kind of a major research project however at Taranto torpedo and dive bombers were split 11:10

I don't think the Swordfish were making 60% degree dives at night at Taranto. In any case 2 bomb-carrying Swordfish in each wave carried only 4 bombs so they could carry the flares, which certainly weren't dropped in steep dives.

As for the Devastator and Albacore, the Devastator entered service in 1937 and the Albacore in 1940. I refuse to believe that the Albacore is the best British technology could produce in 1940; surely they could produce something between the Devastator and Avenger.
 
All the Axis convoys in the Med from Malta and North Africa; they used Blenheim bombers at wavetop height with 30% loss rates and used Swordfish as night torpedo strike using flares as back-light illuminating. They also didn't dive bomb the S & G during the Channel Dash.



I don't think the Swordfish were making 60% degree dives at night at Taranto. In any case 2 bomb-carrying Swordfish in each wave carried only 4 bombs so they could carry the flares, which certainly weren't dropped in steep dives.

As for the Devastator and Albacore, the Devastator entered service in 1937 and the Albacore in 1940. I refuse to believe that the Albacore is the best British technology could produce in 1940; surely they could produce something between the Devastator and Avenger.

At Taranto the targets were battleships, which are rather hard to damage by dive bombing - they do have heavy armoured decks
Why would you risk a valuable (and irreplacable) fleet carrier to dive bomb a convoy, unless its an absolutely critical convoy?? When you can attack them with land-based planes??
 
Take one Fairey Battle add folding wings like the Fulmar and Fowler flaps, add a Hercules engine and voila in 1940 you have a competitive TSR/DB.

However this thread is about fighters, so how about a Hercules engined, cannon armed single seat sea Defiant! Yes we have been there and done that before!
 
At Taranto the targets were battleships, which are rather hard to damage by dive bombing - they do have heavy armoured decks
Why would you risk a valuable (and irreplacable) fleet carrier to dive bomb a convoy, unless its an absolutely critical convoy?? When you can attack them with land-based planes??

The targets for bomb-toting swordfish at Taranto were the cruisers in the inner harbour, there wasn't enough room and dropping positions for more torpedo bombers to attack the battleships.

There were Swordfish based on land in Malta and North Africa as well as in Britain, tasked with torpedo strike on Axis shipping. These squadrons most likely flew more attack sorties than those on carriers.
 
All the Axis convoys in the Med from Malta and North Africa; they used Blenheim bombers at wavetop height with 30% loss rates and used Swordfish as night torpedo strike using flares as back-light illuminating. They also didn't dive bomb the S & G during the Channel Dash.



I don't think the Swordfish were making 60% degree dives at night at Taranto. In any case 2 bomb-carrying Swordfish in each wave carried only 4 bombs so they could carry the flares, which certainly weren't dropped in steep dives.

As for the Devastator and Albacore, the Devastator entered service in 1937 and the Albacore in 1940. I refuse to believe that the Albacore is the best British technology could produce in 1940; surely they could produce something between the Devastator and Avenger.

"They also didn't dive bomb the S & G during the Channel Dash"

Didn't exactly get a chance to torpedo them either the poor bastards.

Well the 'Apple core' is a better aircraft by any yardstick you wish to use than the Devestator with the exception of the Devestators Max speed being 179 knots vs 140 knots for the Albacore.

But a more important its cruise speed was 111 Knots - Albacore is 122 knots

Devestator had a range of 378 NMs with a torp - Albacore was 817 NMs with a torp

It could carry twice the bomb load nearly twice as far as the Dev and by all accounts the Dev handled like a brick while the Albacore was very manouverable - Eric Brown noted that it was very smooth in a dive and easily recovered from one etc

Now obviously all that would make F-all difference if being attacked by A6ms or BF109s but if I was one of the crews of those 41 Devs that took part in the Midway battle I would rather have been in an Albacore!

So in most respects the British 'had' produced "something between the Devastator and Avenger"
 
I would have thought a 1940 TB could do more than 140kt.



The Avenger first saw action in mid 42, a state of the art 1940 TB could have a 1400-1500hp Hercules.

Reliable production standard Hercules are in very short supply in 1940. If the RN is fitting them to torpedo bombers what does the Beaufighter use. I will take a punt and say night fighters will be a higher priority.

Engines of more than a 1000 hp don't really come along till after 1940
 

hipper

Banned
All the Axis convoys in the Med from Malta and North Africa; they used Blenheim bombers at wavetop height with 30% loss rates and used Swordfish as night torpedo strike using flares as back-light illuminating. They also didn't dive bomb the S & G during the Channel Dash.



I don't think the Swordfish were making 60% degree dives at night at Taranto. In any case 2 bomb-carrying Swordfish in each wave carried only 4 bombs so they could carry the flares, which certainly weren't dropped in steep dives.

Hmm can I ask why you think the Swordfish were making 60 degree dives at night over Taranto?
the superb armoured Carriers website has a number of accounts which all state that the bombs were dropped during dives, either from 8000 ft or from 2500 ft to 500 ft. They did carry out 60 degree dives pre war in practice dive bombing trials..




As for the Devastator and Albacore, the Devastator entered service in 1937 and the Albacore in 1940. I refuse to believe that the Albacore is the best British technology could produce in 1940; surely they could produce something between the Devastator and Avenger.

The Albacore was a superb Aircraft if you were worried about taking off with a heavy load from a Short deck with a engine of about 1000 he

The successor aircraft was the Barracuda which used advanced variable geometry aircraft with 1600 Hp engines it was designed in the late 1930s but was delayed by war priorities.


Edit beaten to it with more erudition I see
 
The successor aircraft was the Barracuda which used advanced variable geometry aircraft with 1600 Hp engines it was designed in the late 1930s but was delayed by war priorities.

It also suffered from an engine change mid program; it was supposed to use the new Rolls Royce Exe engine, but this was abandoned. Then the heavier and less powerfull Merlin 30 was fited, which wasn't good enough, requiring another engine change... result? Aircraft in service only in 1943...
 
The diving attack at 60 degrees works fine against a ship at anchor.
Its not that bad on a moving target, but not as good as the 80 degree dive.
 
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