Des Moines Class CA in modern USN

Is there a mission for a Des Moines class CA in the USN now? Or maybe a hybrid with 8" guns in turrets up front and the vertical launch missile system in the rear of the ship? Currently the largest gun on a USN ship is a 5" single gun mount and it seems kinda small for gun fire support.
Would a ship with maybe a single turret with two or three 8" guns plus the missile battery work for gunfire support of the amphibious fleet and provide AA cover for them? It could also be used as a flag/command ship for amphibious task forces.
 
Too old. Newport News was a floating mess by the time it was decommissioned in June 1975, having been thoroughly ridden hard and put away wet by the time it was retired. Des Moines and Salem had been decommissoned too long and not well taken care of. The idea of reactivating the Des Moines class was studied during the Reagan years. Besides that, Reagan went big with the fire support wishes, which is how the Four Iowas returned to service. Modern design has also made shells fly farther and hit harder now than ever. For fire support, if you wanted a modern weapon, I'd recommend a cruiser-sized vessel with a destroyer hull for stability, with four three-gun turrets mounting 155mm guns based on modern artillery designs, which can shoot faster and as such deliver more firepower.

If you wanted to have more of such vessels, get a number of the Baltimore class cruisers reactivated, which gives you more ships, meaning those which are there get used less harshly. Also, have a few survive in the mothball fleet. Thus, they aren't effectively scrap when Reagan comes along in 1980, and orders them as part of his 600-ship Navy. Modern systems and upgrades knocks the crew size from 1,150 to maybe 700. If you are thinking more radically, remove the third turret and fit it with a helicopter hangar and landing pad, and additional office spaces and other such gear for a flagship. (Oregon City and Rochester would be best for this - they only have one funnel.) The less overpressure of the 8" gun blasts means that you could perhaps get the NATO Sea Sparrow system for some SAM systems. A 700-crew vessel with fire support abilities might have some ability to survive the cuts of the 1990s and remain in service, though by now they would need their machinery replaced, which would be a gargantuan job.
 
The planned reactivation of the Des Moines class would have included electronics upgrades, CIWS and a fit of missiles similar to what was put on the Iowas (Harpoon & Tomahawk in ABLs), and largely because of volume requirements and needing to add a lot of extra electical generation capacity, it would have been a fairly major reconstruction that involved removing Turret 3 (the aft 3 8" turret, and at least 1 5" mount (Mount 56, the aft centerline mount) and possibly Mounts 54 & 55 (the aft broadside mounts), as well as major modifications to the internal structure- the extensive subdivision of the ships made it harder. Furthermore, the conversion would have really pushed the displacement, used volume, and stability limits of the design. The conclusion of that design study was that the Iowas were better suited for that sort of conversion (adding missiles & modern electronics) in every way- although more expensive to run, they were much more survivable and the modernization would have been much simpler. I have a PDF scan of a 1984 article outlining the plan that someone on Navweaps posted a link to a few years back (might have been in the Naval Engineers Journal), but its too big to post as an attachment.

Without such a massive effort, all the Des Moines would have been useful for would be a pure NGFS platform, but the Iowas would likely have better at that as well, even if they were 'too big' there as well. In a somewhat ironic twist, someone in that Navweaps discussion who was involved in the project (might have been Bill Jurens) said that the Alaskas, had they still been around, would have been the ideal ships for that conversion- just the right size, as the Des Moines (& the Baltimores) would have been too small.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Is there a mission for a Des Moines class CA in the USN now? Or maybe a hybrid with 8" guns in turrets up front and the vertical launch missile system in the rear of the ship? Currently the largest gun on a USN ship is a 5" single gun mount and it seems kinda small for gun fire support.
Would a ship with maybe a single turret with two or three 8" guns plus the missile battery work for gunfire support of the amphibious fleet and provide AA cover for them? It could also be used as a flag/command ship for amphibious task forces.


There is a mission, just like there is a mission for the Iowa (and actually the South Dakota) class battleships. The problem is the mission is so limited and rare (when was the last time the U.S. had to do an opposed amphibious landing) and can be effectively accomplished by other platforms that are far more flexible and useful on a depressingly regular basis that the cost of keeping them crewed and maintained is unsupportable.

The Big Gun ships would be great to have around if they could be maintained for free, but to be effective, like any other piece of military hardware, the crews have to well trained and constantly drilled so they can perform their tasks properly. That expense would, over the time period it takes to build one, pay for a CVN. When you look at that trade-off, especially in a world where the USN is being forced to reduce the number of CBG due to budget issues, the decision is a slam dunk.
 
A sort of big gun maybe coming back in stuff off the recently curtailed DDX, maybe going on modded Burke's:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_61-62_ags.htm
Entry updated 6/3/10.

The focus from the article seems to be toward long range land attack, and away from a ship-ship gun of old.

Like a version of Exalibur for ships - a weapon that's out and now working well. Too bad they aren't making this compatible with land 155. I'm guessing shock of firing - muzzle velocity, ect is the problem to solve. Believe even with heavier charges and firing Excalibur from land 155 the shock is a lot less than with this gun. Shock was one of the key problems solved in getting the Excalibur itself to work.

The gun compares up with a Cleveland gun to be hotter and harder hitting, about same rate of fire, range about like an Iowa BB - assuming they develop the ballistic projectile and not just make the gun a launcher for what I'm guessing is a smaller version of GPS-MLRS:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_6-47_mk16.htm
 
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Blair152

Banned
Is there a mission for a Des Moines class CA in the USN now? Or maybe a hybrid with 8" guns in turrets up front and the vertical launch missile system in the rear of the ship? Currently the largest gun on a USN ship is a 5" single gun mount and it seems kinda small for gun fire support.
Would a ship with maybe a single turret with two or three 8" guns plus the missile battery work for gunfire support of the amphibious fleet and provide AA cover for them? It could also be used as a flag/command ship for amphibious task forces.
Mentioned in one of John Ringo's Legacy of the Aldenata novels, I believe.
You'd need to upgrade everything. Keep the guns but install cruise missiles,
a Phalanx Gatling gun, (also known as a CWIS, Sea-whizz), or close-in weapon system, to fire beyond the range of the guns. Then you'd have the
perfect weapons platform.
 
The planned reactivation of the Des Moines class would have included electronics upgrades, CIWS and a fit of missiles similar to what was put on the Iowas (Harpoon & Tomahawk in ABLs), and largely because of volume requirements and needing to add a lot of extra electical generation capacity, it would have been a fairly major reconstruction that involved removing Turret 3 (the aft 3 8" turret, and at least 1 5" mount (Mount 56, the aft centerline mount) and possibly Mounts 54 & 55 (the aft broadside mounts), as well as major modifications to the internal structure- the extensive subdivision of the ships made it harder. Furthermore, the conversion would have really pushed the displacement, used volume, and stability limits of the design. The conclusion of that design study was that the Iowas were better suited for that sort of conversion (adding missiles & modern electronics) in every way- although more expensive to run, they were much more survivable and the modernization would have been much simpler. I have a PDF scan of a 1984 article outlining the plan that someone on Navweaps posted a link to a few years back (might have been in the Naval Engineers Journal), but its too big to post as an attachment.

You have a link to that article? I'd like to see it, if that's possible. I was thinking pretty much right along those lines in terms of problems.

Without such a massive effort, all the Des Moines would have been useful for would be a pure NGFS platform, but the Iowas would likely have better at that as well, even if they were 'too big' there as well. In a somewhat ironic twist, someone in that Navweaps discussion who was involved in the project (might have been Bill Jurens) said that the Alaskas, had they still been around, would have been the ideal ships for that conversion- just the right size, as the Des Moines (& the Baltimores) would have been too small.

I'm not sure about that one. The size would have been good, but the Alaskas had maneuverability issues, which is rather bad if you are trying to accurately plot fire from heavy-caliber guns, particularly if the enemy is shooting back. (Think the duel between South African Table Mountain artillery positions and USS Wisconsin doing NGFS duty in Vortex.) I'm thinking perhaps if we're going with the Baltimores - the Iowas are great ships, but too big and expensive to operate to be able to survive in times of lower budgets - perhaps replacing the superstructure, like what was done with the Albany class CGs, may be a solution. I don't honestly understand the point of 5" mount right behind the 8" guns - useful to kill kamikazes, perhaps, but in a modern rebuild of these ships, I'd ditch that thing and build a new bridge in its place. I also suggested the Oregon City class vessels, because they are single funnels, which makes reconstruction less complicated. Perhaps in the days of CIWS systems and the extensive compartmentalization of the cruisers, maybe using an aluminum superstructure is possible here. (Yes, I am aware of what happened to USS Belknap and HMS Sheffield.) I would also say that they would be wise to figure out how to mount some form of SAM on the ship. That was planned for the Iowas, but the overpressure from the guns was to much for the Sea Sparrow system.

Calbear has mentioned most of the problems pretty well. Such a vessel is not much use if you are haven't got the skilled manpower for it to work properly. I think we are thinking here if the USN was not in threat of having its size chopped.
 
You have a link to that article? I'd like to see it, if that's possible. I was thinking pretty much right along those lines in terms of problems.

I don't have the link, but I could set one up if you're aware of any free file-hosting sites, or I could e-mail it to you if you could PM me an e-mail address- the file's somewhat over 5MB, IIRC.

I'm not sure about that one. The size would have been good, but the Alaskas had maneuverability issues, which is rather bad if you are trying to accurately plot fire from heavy-caliber guns, particularly if the enemy is shooting back. (Think the duel between South African Table Mountain artillery positions and USS Wisconsin doing NGFS duty in Vortex.) I'm thinking perhaps if we're going with the Baltimores - the Iowas are great ships, but too big and expensive to operate to be able to survive in times of lower budgets - perhaps replacing the superstructure, like what was done with the Albany class CGs, may be a solution. I don't honestly understand the point of 5" mount right behind the 8" guns - useful to kill kamikazes, perhaps, but in a modern rebuild of these ships, I'd ditch that thing and build a new bridge in its place. I also suggested the Oregon City class vessels, because they are single funnels, which makes reconstruction less complicated. Perhaps in the days of CIWS systems and the extensive compartmentalization of the cruisers, maybe using an aluminum superstructure is possible here. (Yes, I am aware of what happened to USS Belknap and HMS Sheffield.) I would also say that they would be wise to figure out how to mount some form of SAM on the ship. That was planned for the Iowas, but the overpressure from the guns was to much for the Sea Sparrow system.

Calbear has mentioned most of the problems pretty well. Such a vessel is not much use if you are haven't got the skilled manpower for it to work properly. I think we are thinking here if the USN was not in threat of having its size chopped.

In suggesting the Alaskas were 'just right' for the sort of modernization like what was done to the Iowas, I think they were looking at size, manning requirements and operating costs as the primary considerations (would be a problem regardless of the platform, however nice they'd be to have around), with available electrical generating capacity as a close second (Des Moines would have required several extra diesel generators to be installed to make the conversion work, and the same would apply to a Baltimore/Oregon City).

The centerline 5" mounts were a standard part of late US cruiser design practice, and part of the logic was 360-deg coverage, useful for a large screening element which is what cruisers spent much of their time as, although I think the bigger part was the abilitiy to get an 8-gun secondary battery broadside with only having to add 4 guns to a very tight design.

As for the range & manuveribility issues, I suppose a specialized shore-bombardment round could be used to compensate- according to the info at Navweaps, the heavy cruiser St. Paul successfully bombarded a VC position at 35 miles using an experimental long-range bombardment round in 1970.

Perhaps one could try doing an updated version of the Boston & Canberra conversions if one wanted to try using a CA, assuming getting something along those lines with 1980s stuff crammed into a WW2 hull could work, although the Oregon City class had similar compartmentilization as the Des Moines, as that was part of the war experience cited in the design modifications done to the Oregon City (although that particular ship may have been defective somehow, as it was decommissioned right away, and the only Baltimore-type hull never considered for reactivation or missile conversion in the 50s & early 60s)
 
Thank you folks for the feedback. Outside of amphibious support is there any mission now for a gun ship in the Navy now? At least armed with 6"/155mm or bigger. If amphibious support is all that heavy guns are needed for now what about 1 or two guns mounted on the LSD's?

Thank you.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Thank you folks for the feedback. Outside of amphibious support is there any mission now for a gun ship in the Navy now? At least armed with 6"/155mm or bigger. If amphibious support is all that heavy guns are needed for now what about 1 or two guns mounted on the LSD's?

Thank you.
Depending on how good the SAM and CIWS systems are, it could serve as a carrier-killer, dashing into firing range and just opening up with her main guns, but SSN and plain AIP Attack Subs are much more practical for that.

Mounting the guns on the landing ships, instead of having a Dedicated NGfS vessel probably isn't a good Idea, just because the trade offs would make it far more effective to have a dedicated landing ship and a dedicated NGfS vessel. Which gives the option of the NGfS vessel going further up the coast to provide support in a different area while the landing ship is still putting troops ashore, you can't do that with one ship. However, using a gun on the landing ship as a supplement to the dedicated NGfS vessel's guns might help the beachhead a fair amount if the landing ship still hasn't landed enough Arty.
 
Depending on how good the SAM and CIWS systems are, it could serve as a carrier-killer, dashing into firing range and just opening up with her main guns...

Good luck dashing into firing range of something (read: a carrier) which is probably faster, but at most 5 knots (by most pessimistic guesstimates) or so slower than you...

Even if said CBG wouldn't do anything against you, with the better C4ISR a carrier would have, it would result in a tail-chase, which would take hours.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Good luck dashing into firing range of something (read: a carrier) which is probably faster, but at most 5 knots (by most pessimistic guesstimates) or so slower than you...

Even if said CBG wouldn't do anything against you, with the better C4ISR a carrier would have, it would result in a tail-chase, which would take hours.
Yeah, it's a stupid Idea, but if the CWIS and SAM systems are good enough the Cruiser might last long enough to get in range. But yeah outside of NGfS that's the only thing I can think of that'd make use of the Ship's guns, that the USN can't do already. IMO any new Gun-cruiser or BC would be more or less an AEGIS-equipped AA vessel with some bigger guns for shelling the crap out of something. on the Other thread about this topic (In FH), I've more or less started referring to it as the Super-Tico.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Yeah, it's a stupid Idea, but if the CWIS and SAM systems are good enough the Cruiser might last long enough to get in range. But yeah outside of NGfS that's the only thing I can think of that'd make use of the Ship's guns, that the USN can't do already. IMO any new Gun-cruiser or BC would be more or less an AEGIS-equipped AA vessel with some bigger guns for shelling the crap out of something. on the Other thread about this topic (In FH), I've more or less started referring to it as the Super-Tico.


Chasing the carrier with a surface ship is a REALLY unhealthy idea. American CBG always have at least one, generally two, SSN in attendance.

If a SBG is trying to close on a carrier the ship will thunder right over the sub, which will happily collect a Battleship or CBGN for the Captain's mantle.
 
Unless you have some sort of weird scenario when Electronic Jamming has made EVERY missile useless, and somehow submarines have been rendered ineffective too, you would really have to stretch to find a way to get enemy ships to come out and let themselves get within gun range of anything, altho if they HAD to protect their own bases or a convoy or a landing I suppose they'd feel compelled to stay til shells started dropping around them.

Landing support is the easiest scenario for a gun armed ship to fit into. MAybe a helo assault onto Tripoli Airport. Nice to have almost unlimited 8 inch arty support while you secure your perimeter, rather than have to worry about what the flyboys are doing. And having a ship there that can take a couple of slip-thru Exocets before having to flee would be nice.
 
So a new build ship for NGFS specs.
4 to 8 guns 6"/155 or bigger, 8" if possible
Phalanax/CIWS
Vert. launch missile system, mix of AA for self defense and land attack for distance fire support/interdiction
Full Aegis system or stepped down version for group defense
Helipad/VTOL fixed wing pad
Special Warfare capable, carry a Seal team or two/ Force Recon unit
Drone capability for spotting and attack

I am working on a Pirates and or terrorist scenario sometime from the late 90's to the 2010's and felt NGFS would be helpful in dealing with them.
 
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I was finally able to find a place to host a copy of that article I have on the 1980s modernization of the Iowas and a study of a similar modernization on the Des Moines CAs, which can be downloaded from here.
 
I was finally able to find a place to host a copy of that article I have on the 1980s modernization of the Iowas and a study of a similar modernization on the Des Moines CAs, which can be downloaded from here.

Very intriguing. I'm somewhat surprised that in the Des Moines class article that they did not consider trying to change the ship's trim or add stabilizers to counteract the problems with center of gravity. If that had been on the cards, it might have allowed the building of a hangar and reworking some of the superstructure. Somebody had to think about the operating costs of these upgrades, and that makes me wonder why they did not consider some other changes or options.
 
Very intriguing. I'm somewhat surprised that in the Des Moines class article that they did not consider trying to change the ship's trim or add stabilizers to counteract the problems with center of gravity. If that had been on the cards, it might have allowed the building of a hangar and reworking some of the superstructure. Somebody had to think about the operating costs of these upgrades, and that makes me wonder why they did not consider some other changes or options.

I think budgetary constraints were a big reason, as from what I've seen, the Iowas were modernized on the cheap as much as possible, doing the minimum necessary to add Harpoon, Tomahawk, CIWS, and reasonably modern electronics as a sort of quick & dirty response to the Soviet Kirovs in terms of size and SSM capability (not to mention operating costs)- adding any sort of SAM capability, even bolting on Sea Sparrow anywhere they could find the room, was vetoed for that reason, as was reactivating any sort of flagship C3I capability (deemed too expensive & the Navy was desperately trying to avoid potential & actual criticism that the whole excercise was nothing more than providing expensive toys for the admirals- the new CIC was built in what used to be flag country); even spending the money to reactivate the main battery was a subject of debate.

Had one of the strike cruiser proposals of the 1970s actually been built in any numbers, I think it'd be questionable whether all 4, if any would have been reactivated (maybe 1 or 2 for NGFS), as those cruisers would have been seen as Kirov-equivalents in the minds of Congress, and if the variant built was one armed with the LW 8" gun, it'd probably be considered the NGFS platform as well.
 

Bearcat

Banned
The Sea Sparrow issue wasn't expense or room. Iowas have plenty of room.

It was the overpressure when the 16-inch guns were fired. The Sea Sparrow box launchers - Mk. 29 I think? - just weren't able to take it.
 
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