Des Hebreux, comme des Orientaux : a French Renaissance TL

The fall of Constantinople happened in may 1453. Western Princes had other preoccupations, and the Byzantine Empire was not what it used to be. The city and it's guardians were not able to fight back and the Emperor died. And a future King would not miss this opportunity.

The Dauphin Louis of France, exiled on his realm of Dauphiné, was in a complicating situation. His behavior towards his father resulted in a very tense situation, and he already revolted once. He his also banned from the Royal Domain for this. But he also developped much Dauphiné, by welcoming back Jews and inviting craftsmen from everywhere. He learned about the fall of Constantinople and took a very important decision, he would try by all means to get some Byzantine refugees.

He was interested in byzantine refugees for several reasons. People who could afford the travel were rich, the presence of notables from an Empire, even fallen, would be a source of prestige and relationships, and, most of all, he was trying to lay his hands on the Greek Fire. For this, he had to convince the imperial court to join, and the result was impressive : 1 500 Greeks, mostly rich and influent ones, with some members of the imperial family itself, as well as the Patriarch of Constantinople and many scientists and artists.

To achieve this goal, he created on a small village the "Free City of Fontaine". He chose this village for several reasons : it was it's own parish, which meaned that it would fit more easily in the current administration; it was very close to Grenoble, where Louis de Valois was residing, so he could show up and be present; and it lacked a bridge to get to Grenoble, so those influent people would be very busy building the bridge for the first year at least, and he could establish his authority on them properly.

The act of legal fondation of this Great City started with the famous and often quoted "Que l'on peut croire en chaque foi, qu'il en soit des Hebreux comme des Orientaux." meaning One can believe in any faith, that being for Hebrews as for the Easterns, designating the Orthodox. The other thing that was established was that the first daughter of Louis would be engaged with a member of the Imperial Family, that would reign over the City under surveilance from the Dauphin.

The creation of such a place of full legality towards Jews was in complete contradiction with the status of 1394 published under Charles VI. When some member of the Court asked the King about this, this one could not let his only heir be discredited, and answered "On dit que mon fils ne respecte pas la volonté de mon père, je répondrais que mon père n'a pas de volonté." (One says that my son is desobeying my father's will, I would answer that he has none.)

This official fall into disgrace of Charles VI was only the following of what everyone was thinking, but it's extension to Isabeau de Bavière was more criticized at it's beginning, only to become fully accepted after some propaganda from both the King and the Dauphin. Those two reconciliated (at least officially) in 1455, and agreed (we know this through letters) to enforce a policy of glorification of the Court of Bourges, to show how legitimate Charles VII and it's heirs were all the time.

This glorification policy leaded to the revision of the Trial of Joan of Arc, that was recognized as unfair and false. She was even recognised as a martyr, mostly, it is true, because of the promise of Charles VII to dismantle the Tower of Philippe le Bel and to give some of the taxes to the Pope until the end of his reign.

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PS : So, how bad and unaccurate is this ? Do you have any suggestions ?
 
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A detail, but rather than "on his realm" I'd have said "on his lands"; "the city and her guardians", "as the emperor died". This is certainly a "kettle, meet pot" situation giving my own English is nothing short of flawed, tough.

I think the reciepe of Greek Fire was lost at this point, while maybe Louis could think otherwise ITTL.
The main thing bothering me is the number of Greeks involved : giving the relatively limited resources of Louis at this point, especially as he's almost rebelling against his father still, 8,000 might be a bit too much. At the least, you should possibly wait for Louis XI to receive the huge subsides from Burgundy in 1496 : of course it would mean that settling Greeks in Dauphiné is no longer possible, but maybe with his court gathering Greek scholars, not unlike Italian princes did, eventually inspiring him to settle Greeks in France once he becomes king?

Note that at this point, destitute Byzantine already present in Italy tended to be considered poorly.
That it might be considered an hinderance or an opportunity for Louis is up to you (keeping in mind the guy wasn't exactly a visionary), but 8,000 really seems too big IMHO.

Finally, I'm not sure that a bureaucratic late feudal state as France would be that keen on religious tolerence, especially modelling it on Jews. I could see the motto remaining, tough, trough a revitalisation of the idea of France being a "new Juda" (which is more of a XIIth/XIIIth century things, but could be renewed somehow) and Louis as a new "Solomon" calling foreigners for their talents.
 
A detail, but rather than "on his realm" I'd have said "on his lands"; "the city and her guardians", "as the emperor died". This is certainly a "kettle, meet pot" situation giving my own English is nothing short of flawed, tough.

I think the reciepe of Greek Fire was lost at this point, while maybe Louis could think otherwise ITTL.
The main thing bothering me is the number of Greeks involved : giving the relatively limited resources of Louis at this point, especially as he's almost rebelling against his father still, 8,000 might be a bit too much. At the least, you should possibly wait for Louis XI to receive the huge subsides from Burgundy in 1496 : of course it would mean that settling Greeks in Dauphiné is no longer possible, but maybe with his court gathering Greek scholars, not unlike Italian princes did, eventually inspiring him to settle Greeks in France once he becomes king?

Note that at this point, destitute Byzantine already present in Italy tended to be considered poorly.
That it might be considered an hinderance or an opportunity for Louis is up to you (keeping in mind the guy wasn't exactly a visionary), but 8,000 really seems too big IMHO.

Finally, I'm not sure that a bureaucratic late feudal state as France would be that keen on religious tolerence, especially modelling it on Jews. I could see the motto remaining, tough, trough a revitalisation of the idea of France being a "new Juda" (which is more of a XIIth/XIIIth century things, but could be renewed somehow) and Louis as a new "Solomon" calling foreigners for their talents.

Well, we don't know exactly if the greek fire was lost or just if Byzantium had no longer access to the resources due to it's shrinking, but yeah, Louis believes in it anyway (plus he is a wise guy and he wouldn't let such a chance pass) but you're right, the last usa that was documented was in the ealry XIIIth century.

And, yeah, I was planning for 80 and I realised that you don't do a city, even small, with 80 people, but I shouldn't have mentionned a number to be true. You're totally right about this.

And about the Jews, Louis XI did it OTL, so I was just thinking it would not be too crazy to extend it to unionist byzantines. They don't expect reformation to happen at this point or something, so they are being vague for this reason.


But you make two points : 8 000 is far too much; and it was a serious gamble for Charles VII not to disapprove the religious tolerancy of his son. It's probably going to put him in troubles later
 
In June 1458, the Duke Jean II of Alençon goes in trial, being framed of high treason by the King. He cooperated with the Duke of York, inducing a betrayal of the King of France against the Kingdom of England. This is one of the first "fair" cases intented in this context. Against a weak vassal, the King would usually just straight up confiscate his vassal's land or kill him. This Trial is seen by many historians as a precursor to the "Posthumous Trial of Burgundy" in 1477. It is true that both share very similar features, such as an assembly of theologists and jurists, or the presence of a Papal Legate to sanction the verdict. The decision of the Court is clear : Jean d'Alençon would loose his titles and be thrown in jail in Aigues-Mortes.

At the 30th of August, the King Charles VII and his son sign the "Peace of Grenoble" establishing a non-agression pact ; establishing the power of the Dauphin and it's limits ; and an oath from the Dauphin to be totally invested in an eventual war against Burgundy. This would also authorize the Dauphin to go in Paris, and give him a role of advisor toward his father, and recognize the promise of marriage made by Louis towards the Palaiologos.

Paloiologos who met the King in person, while he stayed until the 17th of September, for the inauguration of the Saint-David-Bridge, crossing the Drac and linking Grenoble to Fontaine. the exact date of inauguration is known because it is written on the first stone of the chapel. Around the bridge's chapel, are several small manors for the main contributors of the bridge, and a customs house to tax the merchants entering Fontaine.

Charles VII, as a mark of will to cooperate, rented high sums of money to René d'Anjou, with no interest, for his campaigns against Ferdinand of Naples. The would last two years and conclude on a faborable peace signed at Sarno in 1460. The treaty of Sarno features as majors terms : the total cleaning of René's debts toward Charles VII by Ferdinand ; the title of King of Naples-Lorraine (Ferdinand being King of Naples-Sicily) ; the restitution of all the symbolics attributes of monarchy to René d'Anjou ; and the guarantee that in case of death without direct male heir from the King of Naples-Sicily would lead to an inheritance by the King of Naples-Lorraine.

During this war, René occupied Genova in the name of France, that became co-ruled by the Dauphin and Jean d'Anjou, heir of René, as the "Protectorat sur Gênes". Genova's Republic would still keep a certain amount of autonomy, being authorized to elect a Doge that can contest the decision of the co-governors. The Doge being appointed is Giacomo Grimaldi, and the Dauphin de France moves to Genova, in order to make sure he is well represented.

After the Napolitan War of Succession, a small faction revolted in May 1461 in Genova, led by the Archbishop of Genova. However, the majority of the city inhabitants only saw in this revolt the continuation of the internal strifes that the Republic was corrupted by even before the French protectorate. During this revolt, the Doge Giacomo, who's mandate was renewed with the support of Louis de Valois, supported France against the rebellion. The troubles lasted a week, known as the "Black Week" and the issue was very favorable to the pro-French party, since the co-governors were able to calm the troubles and let the Doge intervine.

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Kingdom of the Naples-Lorraine's coat of arms under René d'Anjou
 
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I gave the legal coat of arms of Naples-Lorraine as a Kingdom, neither Provence, Bar or Anjou are "de jure" part of it, so their presence wouldn't make much sense on such a coat of arms. But you are right, those were OTL René's coat of arms. This will play a role later.
 
I gave the legal coat of arms of Naples-Lorraine as a Kingdom, neither Provence, Bar or Anjou are "de jure" part of it, so their presence wouldn't make much sense on such a coat of arms. But you are right, those were OTL René's coat of arms. This will play a role later.
If you're just having Naples Jerusalem and Lorraine then Lorraine inescutcheon would make more sense than "marring" that of Jerusalem.
 
If you're just having Naples Jerusalem and Lorraine then Lorraine inescutcheon would make more sense than "marring" that of Jerusalem.

Well, I'm not a graphist nor a medievist, and I'm not sure I would find someone to help me in my entourage, so I did my best. I will try to do a better version of it
 
Well, I'm not a graphist nor a medievist, and I'm not sure I would find someone to help me in my entourage, so I did my best. I will try to do a better version of it
It's about plausibility, and defacing the traditional Arms of Jerusalem isn't.
A simple escutcheon of Lorraine over the Arms of Joanna will solve that if you're not wanting to use Rene's personal arms.
 
It's about plausibility, and defacing the traditional Arms of Jerusalem isn't.
A simple escutcheon of Lorraine over the Arms of Joanna will solve that if you're not wanting to use Rene's personal arms.

Let's just say I don't want to continue this conversation. You are probably just trying to help. I'm just too unsatisfied about my own work to continue this exchange civically. I will try what you say and see the result.
 
Let's just say I don't want to continue this conversation. You are probably just trying to help. I'm just too unsatisfied about my own work to continue this exchange civically. I will try what you say and see the result.
My apologies, I'm not trying to demotivate you just provide good advice/critique.
 
8 000 Greeks, mostly rich and influent ones, with some members of the imperial family itself, as well as the Patriarch of Constantinople...
PS : So, how bad and unaccurate is this ? Do you have any suggestions ?

There is absolutely no way the Patriarch leaves Constantinople, giving up his office and abandoning his flock (which includes hundreds of thousands of Christians already under Turkish rule in Asia Minor and Thrace). The Turks are brutes, but more tolerant of Orthodox Christianity than Catholics are ("Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!"). The other Eastern Patriarchs (Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, etc.) stayed in place after Moslem conquest.

I can't really speak to the other details; they do show a lot of work.
 
Well, 1453 was a very specific year for Orthodox Christianity, I will give you the links but basically the Orthodox Partriarch accepted some kind of alliance with the Catholic Church (it really pissed of Russia by the way) hoping that Byzantium would get some help, it was during the Council of Firenze. I am talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_III_of_Constantinople (I commited an imprecision by the way, because he was not at Constantinople but at Rome at the time, so I guess the Imperial Family would have called him or something).

And his successor probably never existed, because the only document talking about him is a fake, so there was no Patriarch in Constantinople at this time, he was at Rome. His successor was nominated after the time Constantinople was taken, so ...
 
Not a problem. So much communication uses tone which cannot show in a text medium. Was there a particular word I could have been more neutral?

Well, I don't know, I think the way the sentence "it's a matter of plausibility" really needs, as you said, the use of non-verbal communication, because depending on the receiver, it can be received as "It's really unlikely that they would do that" or "Are you dumb ? Or do you lack basic knowledge ?" This and the fact that you are member for a much longer time than me, (I was barely able to do multiplication when you joined) made me feel like this was a mistake you've seen plenty of times and you were kinda bored of it ^^'
 
Well, I don't know, I think the way the sentence "it's a matter of plausibility" really needs, as you said, the use of non-verbal communication, because depending on the receiver, it can be received as "It's really unlikely that they would do that" or "Are you dumb ? Or do you lack basic knowledge ?" This and the fact that you are member for a much longer time than me, (I was barely able to do multiplication when you joined) made me feel like this was a mistake you've seen plenty of times and you were kinda bored of it ^^'
No worries.
I can come across as more arrogant than I am! Just point out if it looks like it!
Tbh heraldic mistakes are rather common on international forums, usually because Europeans make up a small proportion of active members, so it is possible a "this is wrong again" response bled through my reply :happyblush despite not meaning it.
 
No worries.
I can come across as more arrogant than I am! Just point out if it looks like it!
Tbh heraldic mistakes are rather common on international forums, usually because Europeans make up a small proportion of active members, so it is possible a "this is wrong again" response bled through my reply :happyblush despite not meaning it.

Well, I am European, and my family even has heraldic stuff, it's just that I'm not used to do some ^^'
 
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