Der Kampf: The Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer

Is it right to think that this Hitler's defenders and supporters in Germany would be especially centered in the southern portion of the country?
 
Is it right to think that this Hitler's defenders and supporters in Germany would be especially centered in the southern portion of the country?
Probably given that southern Germany was Catholic like Austria and this especially applies to Bavaria which already had its own distinct identity and culture separate from the rest of the country.
 
So no brown. If I recall the Austro-Hungarians did wear brown as one of their colors during World War I.
I'm sure it is, I don't doubt it, but like I said I want to differentiate from the German SA and the Austrian SW. Also, the reason why the SA had the brownshirts were they were supposed to be uniforms for German colonies in Africa, but since Austria doesn't have African colonies it turns to another uniform. I'm going with dark blue as a placeholder during the 20s but when the Sozinats come to power the SW will officially switch to dark blue.

Does von Trapp (and his family) stay in Austria?
He would oppose the Sozinats as their ideology is Nazi-by-another-name so he wouldn't agree with it. Von Trapp will likely flee Austria or he'll be arrested. If arrested, and killed, there would be no Sound of Music.

Anyway, what books did you read for research to create the timeline?
Honestly, none. I'm a 6th grade history teacher and have always been passionate about WW2 and the European Theatre, If you have any books to recommend that would help here with Austro-Hungary, specially interwar Austrian politics, please share so I can learn more about that time. The 20s will be very rife with chaos as so much is going on so having a bit more know how will help loads.

WWI it was Luftahrtruppen for Aviation Troops
Ah, ok. I just assumed it was named after the German model. Oops, my mistake. Well is there another good name for an Air Force that is subservient to the Army? I've envisioned Sozinat Austria's Air Force being more similar to the Army Air Force, a sub-branch of the Army rather than its own independent branch.

Is it right to think that this Hitler's defenders and supporters in Germany would be especially centered in the southern portion of the country?
Much of the far-right, both Fascist and more specifically the German Social Nationalists, will have a powerbase in Bavaria. So yes, you are correct.
 
I'm sure it is, I don't doubt it, but like I said I want to differentiate from the German SA and the Austrian SW. Also, the reason why the SA had the brownshirts were they were supposed to be uniforms for German colonies in Africa, but since Austria doesn't have African colonies it turns to another uniform. I'm going with dark blue as a placeholder during the 20s but when the Sozinats come to power the SW will officially switch to dark blue.



He would oppose the Sozinats as their ideology is Nazi-by-another-name so he wouldn't agree with it. Von Trapp will likely flee Austria or he'll be arrested. If arrested, and killed, there would be no Sound of Music.



Honestly, none. I'm a 6th grade history teacher and have always been passionate about WW2 and the European Theatre, If you have any books to recommend that would help here with Austro-Hungary, specially interwar Austrian politics, please share so I can learn more about that time. The 20s will be very rife with chaos as so much is going on so having a bit more know how will help loads.



Ah, ok. I just assumed it was named after the German model. Oops, my mistake. Well is there another good name for an Air Force that is subservient to the Army? I've envisioned Sozinat Austria's Air Force being more similar to the Army Air Force, a sub-branch of the Army rather than its own independent branch.


Much of the far-right, both Fascist and more specifically the German Social Nationalists, will have a powerbase in Bavaria. So yes, you are correct.
I can suggest searching up books about Adolf Hitler, interwar and Nazi era Germany and Austria. It's going to give you a greater understanding of what happened after World War I in Germany and Austria.
 
I can suggest searching up books about Adolf Hitler, interwar and Nazi era Germany and Austria. It's going to give you a greater understanding of what happened after World War I in Germany and Austria.
I understand post-war Germany a fair amount, but not a whole lot until the Nazi seizure of power, but anything to do with Austrian-Hungary/Austria I knew very little about. So it’s been fascinating to research up what happened. The Eastern Front that the A-H fought on was just a complete mess.
 
I understand post-war Germany a fair amount, but not a whole lot until the Nazi seizure of power, but anything to do with Austrian-Hungary/Austria I knew very little about. So it’s been fascinating to research up what happened. The Eastern Front that the A-H fought on was just a complete mess.
Any academic articles and other research you've read.
 
I understand post-war Germany a fair amount, but not a whole lot until the Nazi seizure of power, but anything to do with Austrian-Hungary/Austria I knew very little about. So it’s been fascinating to research up what happened. The Eastern Front that the A-H fought on was just a complete mess.
There is a really good book about the early NSDAP, written by one of Hitler's cohorts, Ersnt Hanfstaengl. He basically helped the Nazis get funding in the early days, with his rolodex of friends. He also went to Harvard, and if his claims are true, he brought the marching song for the SA from there. His house was where Hitler limped off to after the failure of the Beer Hall Putsch. Eventually he had a falling out, and ended up in the US.

Its called Hitler: The Missing Years. I'd highly recommend it.
 
Correct, it begins in 1940 rather than 1941.
Do you have a plan for why the Japanese would do that? OTL, they were still in the process of swapping over from their passive plan to the aggressive one they took OTL at that point. Furthermore, they didn't seem to have a plan OTL for just facing Britain or France since their interwar strategy was based on the idea that they'd have to fight the US and so the goal was to seize the Philippines and go on the defensive to force a decisive battle.

I'm just not sure how with the implied China and Japan still going at it you're going to neutralise the US as part of Japan's decision making.

Furthermore, I'm not really sure how you'll have them not get decisively fucked over by the UK. OTL, The RN had to be split between many different theatres, not sure how that'd go in this timeline. Probably no uboat threat, since I can't see a restored German Empire not trying to focus on Battleships due to the prestige problem.

I just can't see how Japan can be a major threat in 40 unless you literally pull a crazy Europe is a free for all with Britain and Germany VS France and Russia VS the Austrian Axis. With Italy siding with one of them.
 
I got married this weekend
Congratulations to both of you! 🥳

I'm really enjoying the discussion so far, as well as the TL itself, though I don't think I'll be able to contribute very often, as my knowledge of the Eastern Front and post 1WW Austrian/E-European politics/military isn't great. I look forward to the next chapter.
 
Congratz on the marriage.

I kinda like to see a Japan here that goes the the Siberian gambit instead of the US one. A war vs the USSR would play well in the UK and US which may get them the resources they are after via trade rather than war.

The mental hoops a British Empire at war with a fascist Austria/German alliance yet wanting to support nationalist Japan would be amusing imho...
 
Congratz on the marriage.

I kinda like to see a Japan here that goes the the Siberian gambit instead of the US one. A war vs the USSR would play well in the UK and US which may get them the resources they are after via trade rather than war.

The mental hoops a British Empire at war with a fascist Austria/German alliance yet wanting to support nationalist Japan would be amusing imho...
It’s very possible Hohenzollern Germany will be an Austrian ally but we will have to wait and see
 
There is a really good book about the early NSDAP, written by one of Hitler's cohorts, Ersnt Hanfstaengl. He basically helped the Nazis get funding in the early days, with his rolodex of friends. He also went to Harvard, and if his claims are true, he brought the marching song for the SA from there. His house was where Hitler limped off to after the failure of the Beer Hall Putsch. Eventually he had a falling out, and ended up in the US.

Its called Hitler: The Missing Years. I'd highly recommend it.
Interesting, I'll have to check that out! Thank you. The only downside is that many of the right wing and fascist people Hitler will align with in Austria will be Austrian, so a lot of OTL German fascists will either never rise to prominence or join the

Do you have a plan for why the Japanese would do that? OTL, they were still in the process of swapping over from their passive plan to the aggressive one they took OTL at that point. Furthermore, they didn't seem to have a plan OTL for just facing Britain or France since their interwar strategy was based on the idea that they'd have to fight the US and so the goal was to seize the Philippines and go on the defensive to force a decisive battle.

I'm just not sure how with the implied China and Japan still going at it you're going to neutralise the US as part of Japan's decision making.

Furthermore, I'm not really sure how you'll have them not get decisively fucked over by the UK. OTL, The RN had to be split between many different theatres, not sure how that'd go in this timeline. Probably no uboat threat, since I can't see a restored German Empire not trying to focus on Battleships due to the prestige problem.

I just can't see how Japan can be a major threat in 40 unless you literally pull a crazy Europe is a free for all with Britain and Germany VS France and Russia VS the Austrian Axis. With Italy siding with one of them.
I’m still open to what occurs. What I have planned is the Japanese accidentally a public diplomatic incident, and don’t back down and apologize. Britain moves a portion of its fleet to the Pacific to keep an eye on Japan and to remind them who has been a naval power for longer but this causes Japan to feel cornered so they launch a surprise attack to show the world they are to be taken seriously.

That’s my placeholder idea so I’m open to ideas. I just thought a Pacific War starting in 1940 to be interesting.

If necessary I’ll push it back to early 1941 to give the Japanese more time to prepare. It’s a work in progress.

Congratulations to both of you! 🥳

I'm really enjoying the discussion so far, as well as the TL itself, though I don't think I'll be able to contribute very often, as my knowledge of the Eastern Front and post 1WW Austrian/E-European politics/military isn't great. I look forward to the next chapter.

This has been a nice read. An Austrocentric TL has always been my fav topic. Subbed

And congrats on the marriage! 🎉
Thank you! I’ve noticed a severe lack of Austro-centric timelines and was worried this story would be terribly received. So it was a huge relief to see the positive feedback and community feedback.

Congrats!
Thanks!
Congratulations - I hope you & your partner have a long & happy marriage.
Much appreciated :)
 
Congratz on the marriage.

I kinda like to see a Japan here that goes the the Siberian gambit instead of the US one. A war vs the USSR would play well in the UK and US which may get them the resources they are after via trade rather than war.

The mental hoops a British Empire at war with a fascist Austria/German alliance yet wanting to support nationalist Japan would be amusing imho...
Japan and at least the UK won’t have good relations.

I’ve always enjoyed timelines that featured the Japanese Army’s Northern Strategy over the Navy’s Southern Strategy.

It’s very possible Hohenzollern Germany will be an Austrian ally but we will have to wait and see
Indeed we will :)
 
Another thing about Otto, IOTL he absolutely despised and opposed the Nazis and Hitler. Here's a quote I found online.

"I absolutely reject [Nazi] Fascism for Austria ... This un-Austrian movement promises everything to everyone, but really intends the most ruthless subjugation of the Austrian people .... The people of Austria will never tolerate that our beautiful fatherland should become an exploited colony, and that the Austrian should become a man of second category."
Wouldn't take that much to rework that quote to fit the story.

Also on the subject of not wanting to spoil whether Austria will lose the second world war, considering that the story is called The Rise and Fall of The Austrian Fuhrer, I don't think things are going to go any better for Hitler ITTL. Especially considering he's going to get Britain, the US and the USSR against at the same time and that didn't work out for him when he controlled a much larger country.

Edit: Oh and congrats about the marriage, have a great honeymoon.
 
Last edited:
Hmm, could we see an Austrian anti-fascist resistance using Otto von Habsburg as the figurehead? If that happens, monarchist feelings, which simmered in Austria even till the mid 1970s OTL, would be even more pronounced.
 
Hmm, could we see an Austrian anti-fascist resistance using Otto von Habsburg as the figurehead? If that happens, monarchist feelings, which simmered in Austria even till the mid 1970s OTL, would be even more pronounced.
There were numerous resistance movements that used the Habsburgs as a symbol, two of Otto's cousins were actually arrested and sent to concentration camps.
 
Top