Ironically, due to SoziNat Austria being fiercely anti-communist, such a federation would resemble a right-wing version of the USSR.
Der Kampf: The Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer
- Thread starter Tanner151
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Hmm, that’s a good comparison actually. A union dominated not by Russians but by Austrians. Interesting.
I must admit the Danubian Federation idea is warming up to me.
My honest thought is that Germany should not be in TTL axis. Mostly because that damages the timelines premise of Austria being the main villain.
I think Germany could have a foreign policy similar to OTL Spain, Switzerland, or Sweden, not overtly axis but a neutral power leaning towards them. Their initial armament assistance could help Hitler build his war machine initially. Yet wiser minds will seek to wait out the war, with Germany rebuilding its power economically and through soft missions in China and other parts of Asia.
Tensions will be high with France but rearming will probably not happen to the same extent as OTL so France might be able to outmatch then militarily until the atomic age.
Perhaps this Austria when war with the Soviet Union occurs this time does a joint attack with Japan.
A idea I find interesting is perhaps getting an axis Turkey would help the balance. A Turkish blitz for resources with revanchist ideas being the main guide.
Stepan Bandera will probably be a major partner once war with the USSR begins. The Russian Liberation Army could form immediately given this Hitler doesn’t desire “Lebensraum.”
I think Germany could have a foreign policy similar to OTL Spain, Switzerland, or Sweden, not overtly axis but a neutral power leaning towards them. Their initial armament assistance could help Hitler build his war machine initially. Yet wiser minds will seek to wait out the war, with Germany rebuilding its power economically and through soft missions in China and other parts of Asia.
Tensions will be high with France but rearming will probably not happen to the same extent as OTL so France might be able to outmatch then militarily until the atomic age.
Perhaps this Austria when war with the Soviet Union occurs this time does a joint attack with Japan.
A idea I find interesting is perhaps getting an axis Turkey would help the balance. A Turkish blitz for resources with revanchist ideas being the main guide.
Stepan Bandera will probably be a major partner once war with the USSR begins. The Russian Liberation Army could form immediately given this Hitler doesn’t desire “Lebensraum.”
Has it been confirmed? Because otherwise I wouldn't think that could happen. Austria could never contend with the Soviet Union the way Germany attempted (although I suppose the USSR might attack first, but I doubt that is likely).
Deleted member 94680
It’s pretty unlikely and I’m nowhere near on a PoD to make it happen - but what if Bavaria joined Austria? A Greater Austria: Southern, Catholic, Alpine in nature? Maybe a German Civil War results in Bavaria (the hotbed of German right wing politics in the early 20s) gaining independence? The resultant Germany is so traumatised by the aftermath of the GCW the Hohenzollerns come back as a stabilising influence?
I don't see that happening, as it has been a generation since unification, and Bavarians were pretty loyal to Germany.
Deleted member 94680
Yet in the 20s parties advocated Bavarian independence. Like I said, it’s not easy to make happen.
But I do think it gives alt-Hitler’s Austria a better chance of genuine independent action from German dominance.
Edit: A quick search on google for “Bavarian independence” turns up this from the wiki page on Bavarian nationalism:
In 1923, Bavarian monarchists under Minister-President Gustav Ritter von Kahr and his Bavarian People's Party attempted to seize control of the Bavarian government and declare Bavaria independent of Germany and restore the Bavarian monarchy. This Bavarian separatist coup attempt was frustrated by the actions of the then-small Nazi Party which preempted the planned coup and itself attempted to take over the Bavarian government in what became known as the Beerhall Putsch.
So, fwiw, OTL Ritter von Kahr (who I’ve heard more often referred to as a nationalist as opposed to a monarchist) wanted to launch a coup for an independent, right-wing Bavaria. Ironically, OTL Hitler scuppered his plans with the Beerhall nonsense and the rest is history. ATL, there are no Nazis (or far less) and Hitler is an Austrian who might well welcome said right-wing Bavaria...
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That is pretty cool, though I think the reinstating of the of German monarchy makes it likely the others come back too, avoiding some nationalist spirit. I also don't think the Bavarian monarch would want to be independent.
Deleted member 94680
Why not? There was always tension of one degree or another between the Hohenzollerns and the Wittelsbachs and any restoration would need to be at the “will of the people”. If Bavaria wants independence and their monarchy to return, if Ludwig III (or more likely Ruprecht) wants the throne, it’ll be as a King of an independent Bavaria. To argue otherwise would be to reject the offer.
In part because I don't know what % of Bavarians was actually want independence from Germany as that means the hampering of trade, somehting which would feel like a betrayal after fighting with other Germans in WW1, and other things to do with just being different countries at that time.
The other because the Germany military, while weakened severely, would likely win against Bavarian separatists rising up, and I don't see other partisans helping a monarchy much.
Deleted member 94680
Fair points.
I don’t know what the percentage was either, but I imagine that von Kahr’s course of action (secret coup attempt, militarist dictatorship, etc) would imply it was by no means overwhelming. I read something online (usual disclaimers apply) that said in 2017 33% favoured independence, so it’s not too ASB to suggest with a different TL (civil war, harsher economic situation, etc) that figure might tip 50% ATL.
As to the military aspect, it depends on what percentage of the Reichswehr in Bavaria would “go over” I suppose. If there’s a groundswell of support for the movement and it comes at the end of a Civil War or domestic Crisis scenario, there’s a chance the will to prevent it may not be there. Also, what of the Entente (France) taking their chance and throwing support to the Bavarian independence movement as a way of weakening Germany (Prussia)? Much is made of the “sixty million Germans against forty million French” - would Paris pass up the opportunity to cleave off six and a half million Bavarians?
I think if the Sozinats do end up forming a Danube federation of sorts that Bavaria could be a proposed member, it would certainly help with gaining a larger german population and Bavaria does have a part of the danube in it. I could see Hitler at least supporting Bavarian independence for at least some problems for Germany on the Austrian border.
What are your plans for Sozinat military strategy? I don't think, the nation will be able to get the industry for the mechanized army that Germany has. Perhaps inspired by his experiences in WW1 he decides to have an army that has something of a stormtrooper focus. This might be completely unfeasible but inspired by German stormtrooper tactics of WW1, the lack of industry of the region, heroic ideals, and general lack of manpower and the rough terrain that the nation would be fighting in he decides to build an army with a well-equipped infantry arm that focuses on stormtrooper tactics.
@Stenz
You’re hitting a lot of planned story points, either directly or flirting around it. Due to spoilers I won’t be saying much on this topic but Bavaria will be important to the story in the 1930s and will be a point of contention between the German Reich and Austrian State.
@Truenorth14
As for military tactics, yes Austria will not have the industry or manpower that Germany had. Austria’s Expansion during the 1930s/40s will alleviate many issues but Hitler’s Austria will never be as strong as Hitler’s Germany.
So while it will have Panzers, it will have less in number than Germany. Austria’s Air Force will be far smaller and will mainly be interceptors and fighter-bombers.
There will be an Austrian “Navy” but mainly patrols rivers but once the Axis dominate the Adriatic then there will be a handful of destroyers and at most a light cruiser and that will be it for the Austrian Navy.
Stormtrooper-centered infantry seems good. The “blitzkrieg” of this universe will be Stormfire Sturmfeuer. Although a reader did mention a better name that was closer to blitzkrieg but different. Can’t Remember what it was exactly.
You’re hitting a lot of planned story points, either directly or flirting around it. Due to spoilers I won’t be saying much on this topic but Bavaria will be important to the story in the 1930s and will be a point of contention between the German Reich and Austrian State.
@Truenorth14
As for military tactics, yes Austria will not have the industry or manpower that Germany had. Austria’s Expansion during the 1930s/40s will alleviate many issues but Hitler’s Austria will never be as strong as Hitler’s Germany.
So while it will have Panzers, it will have less in number than Germany. Austria’s Air Force will be far smaller and will mainly be interceptors and fighter-bombers.
There will be an Austrian “Navy” but mainly patrols rivers but once the Axis dominate the Adriatic then there will be a handful of destroyers and at most a light cruiser and that will be it for the Austrian Navy.
Stormtrooper-centered infantry seems good. The “blitzkrieg” of this universe will be Stormfire Sturmfeuer. Although a reader did mention a better name that was closer to blitzkrieg but different. Can’t Remember what it was exactly.
Well, if they have Czechoslovakia, which was one of the primary arms exporter during the interwar period, the situation might not be as bleak as it seems. Czechs had the ability to produce everything, from small arms, modern heavy artillery, tanks, trucks and even modern monoplane fighters (Avia B-35/135s). Austria too had some capabilities, they did produce small arms, some quantities of artillery (AT and Mountain, by Bohler) and even Armoured Cars (ADGZ). The Hungary managed extremely well producing aircraft (MAVAG Heja), trucks, artillery and even tanks (notably Turan I/IIs), mostly comparable to the foreign designs. This OTL efforts are decent enough, but when combined together, with greater sharing of various resources, technical capabilities and know-how, we could see a decent enough industrial output from A-H 2.0.
The army is certainly going to have to be infantry heavy, but they should have enough to at least equip and support those troops to a sufficient degree. Add in some Panzer divisions and some motorized units, and they should have a decent enough force at their disposal.
The Austrian industrial base itself wasn't too bad either. Czechoslovakia was the arms producer of Austria-Hungary whilst Austria Proper was the civilian industrial base of Austria-Hungary. Austria in ww2 produced a lot of civilian goods for Nazi Germany amounting to around 10% to 15% of their total civilian goods in 1942. For a country Austria's size that is massive. So Austria does have a good economic base to start from and things aren't that bleak.
Deleted member 94680
Czechoslovakia had the arms manufacturing capacity and Austria had money (one of the motivators for the Anschluss was Vienna’s cash reserves) so there’s a chance alt-Hitler’s Austria could build a decent military.
Alliances will be vital if any large-scale conquests are to be made possible though.
Alliances will be vital if any large-scale conquests are to be made possible though.
Deleted member 94680
Thank you. I’m enjoying this TL and the discussions have been equally interesting. I hope the intrigues of the twenties and early thirties are explored as it’s a fascinating period to me.