Der Grosse Reich

I had an image in my head of Germany and Austria-Hungary not being two nations, but one Giant European Empire. All of Germany and all of Austria-Hungary under one monarch. Going from Top to bottom of Europe. Truely being the Central Power in Europe.

How might such a thing take place? What impact would this giant empire have on the history of Europe and the world.
 
I had an image in my head of Germany and Austria-Hungary not being two nations, but one Giant European Empire. All of Germany and all of Austria-Hungary under one monarch. Going from Top to bottom of Europe. Truely being the Central Power in Europe.

How might such a thing take place? What impact would this giant empire have on the history of Europe and the world.

Ever read Decades of Darkness?

Anyways, this thing is going to be a funny beast domestically. The lost likely set-up is a tight German Federation under the Hapsburg kaiser, and then Hungary, Croatia, and Galicia as associated Hapsburg kingdoms in personal union, but with lots of autonomy.
 

Germaniac

Donor
getting into language is a bit off topic dont you think?

But yes it could happen with a Hapsburg monarch ruling over All German lands and autonomous regions in personal union with the hapsburg empire
 

Susano

Banned
Of course, an "European" and hence universalist empire might not only have led to resentment on part of the "associated" nationalities SE of Germany, but probably of the German nationalists, too.
 
Of course, an "European" and hence universalist empire might not only have led to resentment on part of the "associated" nationalities SE of Germany, but probably of the German nationalists, too.

Would this effect really be that strong? Short of writing a "Hapsburgs are awesome" TL, there's little to suggest that the Austrians had the potential to take over all of Europe, or even most of it. Imagining as I do the Grossdeutschland philosophy of the 19th century, such a state wouldn't be more than Germany and the Austrian Empire, and those states of the Austrian Empire were usually looked down upon to some degree by Vienna. In such a case, would German "nationalism" really be that strong? Or would there simply be, at most, a backlash against the way that the Emperor would increasingly seek to bring places like Hungary, Croatia, etc onto a par with Germany? After all, Austria itself was considered a core part of Germany right up until the Austrians declared themselves permanently neutral in 1945. Surely if there were "German nationalists" causing trouble then they would consider Austria a territory to remain in the German state? This, of course, with the exception of Prussians who increasingly believed that they were the ones who deserved to ultimately control Germany, and largely wanted Austria out not because it wasn't German but because it was a rival for power in a region they wanted to dominant entirely on their own.
 
Of course, an "European" and hence universalist empire might not only have led to resentment on part of the "associated" nationalities SE of Germany, but probably of the German nationalists, too.

Well, as long as Germans are _actually_ the top dogs, they can feel like sophisticated and superior "carriers of civilization" as the ones who _run_ the "universal" state, without actually sacrificing anything. There will be problems if ethnic/biological racism becomes as prevalent in this universe as ATL, though.

Bruce
 
I see two possibilities to creat such an empire

The first is to prevent the rise of prussia by killing Friedrich der Grosse. Without him Austria would keep Silesia and could annex Bavaria during the war of bavarian succesion. This would not only eliminate to major rivals of the Hapsburgs but also give Austria a much larger german population and thus connect it more firmly with the rest of Germany. If there are a some competent rulers they could annex most of Germany over the next centuries.

The second possibility is that a strong and charismatic boy is born 1825 which becomes an open-minden emperor trying to reform the empire and starts a modernisation and federalisation process of the empire. So when the 1848 revolutions happens the Paulskirche parliament offers him the crown.
 
The first is to prevent the rise of prussia by killing Friedrich der Grosse. Without him Austria would keep Silesia and could annex Bavaria during the war of bavarian succesion. This would not only eliminate to major rivals of the Hapsburgs but also give Austria a much larger german population and thus connect it more firmly with the rest of Germany. If there are a some competent rulers they could annex most of Germany over the next centuries.

Did you envision a mid 18th century Germany like this?

deutschlandk.gif


Would the Hapsburgs even need to "annex" the rest of Germany at this point, or might they be able to effectively reform the HRE with their superior influence and hard power?

Edit: Don't kill me for the bad borders/anti-swiss cheesing of the map, Susano!
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
The first is to prevent the rise of prussia by killing Friedrich der Grosse. Without him Austria would keep Silesia and could annex Bavaria during the war of bavarian succesion. This would not only eliminate to major rivals of the Hapsburgs but also give Austria a much larger german population and thus connect it more firmly with the rest of Germany. If there are a some competent rulers they could annex most of Germany over the next centuries.
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A Austrian victory in 7 Years War would be enough, if that was followed by a annexion of Bavaria in 1778 we already have a universal empire on the way.
 

Redbeard

Banned
I had an image in my head of Germany and Austria-Hungary not being two nations, but one Giant European Empire. All of Germany and all of Austria-Hungary under one monarch. Going from Top to bottom of Europe. Truely being the Central Power in Europe.

How might such a thing take place? What impact would this giant empire have on the history of Europe and the world.

I could easily see something like this happen. Seen from before mid 18th century that was the most likely outcome and I guess it had some plausability until 1866.

Most PoDs would mean Prussia somhow being downgraded, as it first of all was Prussia's rise as Germany's moral leader from mid 18th century and culminating in 1871 that sent Austria back to a Balkan corner. And as important France need to be seen under a Habsburg thumb.

So, 1st option for a PoD:
Prussia gets thorughly thrashed in SYW and Austria has a sufficiently heroic role in this. France can, but will not necessarily win the final againts the winner of the German semi-final.

2nd option for a PoD:
Napoleon is defeated and captured in 1805 by the Austrians. Could be by General Mack having a better day, or because Archduke Charles is in command of this theatre. That will have the Prussians sitting on the fence look cowardish, and the French will for some time be pacified.

3rd option for a PoD:
Napoleon is defeated and captured in 1809 (Aspern-Essling or Wagram), have similar effects as the 1805 one, but as the HRE alreday is down the drain in this PoD, it will be more difficult.

4th option for a PoD:
Schwarzenberg's and Radetzky's original plan from October 1813 to put the main trust west of Leipzig to cut off Napoleon is not vetoed by the Zar, and Napoleon is decisively defeated and captured at Leipzig. The Austrians will come out of this as a clear "First among Germans", but the Prussians will not be as far behind as in the first thee options. A war over the German soul is likely later in 19th century.

5th option for a PoD:
Napoleon is defeated and captured at Hanau in late October 1813. Has similar effects as 4th option, but the Bavarians will demand a leading role and might challenge both Prussia and Austria (but not necessarily at the same time).

6th option for a PoD:
Austria is a clear winner of the war vs. France in 1859 and vs. Prussia in 1866. German nationalism is out of the bottle by this time and asks for a leading nation. Austria is the most likely contender, and if Prussia could subdue/convince the Catholic S.German states I guess Austria could also subdue/convince (to a degree) the Protestant N. Germans.

I doubt this Germanty will be anywhere as clearcut as the OTL however. The Habsburgs (in all options) will be very sceptical towards nationalism. That by nature was a threat vs. the nature of their Empire. But I don't see why a victorious HRE could transform into a more federalist unity. With a clear German majority in the Empire German nationalism by nature will have a role, like Romans vs. the others in the original Unholy Roman Empire. The biggest problem probably will be the Slavs and Hungarians feeling mobbed. But here the Habsburg tradition and role as a multicultural symbol probably can do wonders. In this ATL no shit needs to be taken from the Hungarians, and so the most serious barrier for giving the slavs recognition is removed.

Anyway I'm sure we could see a southern version of German nationalism. In early 19th century there apparantly was as strong German sentiments in southern Germany as in northern, and when breaking with the French in 1813 the Bavarians clearly had an ambition to take a leading role in Germany, at least S. Germany.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
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