Department of Overlooked Technologies, Unusual Effects, and Forgotten Weapons

I have a confession to make. 99 times out of 100 I don't believe in "overlooked technologies", as many proponents of "what if AK-47 had been invented in 1905" tend to overlook one or many "small details" which made said weapon impossible/impractical in said times. Moreover, most of technologies had been tried and rejected before time was ripe for them. As they say about tactic manuals, "This book written not in ink but in blood of smartypants who did othewise".

Actually AK-47 (low-powered rugged auto/semiauto rifle) in 1905 is a wonderful example. Yes, it could be built then, but:
1. Intermediate round is inherently underpowered for long-range shooting. AK is useless farther than 500 m, at least for an average conscript soldier. Today this is covered by squad- or platoon-level "universal" machineguns, such as PK or MAG, plus wide range of mortars, vehicle-mounted heavy weapons and such. And even with that Soviets kept designated marksmen with full-powered semi-auto rifle (SVD) in all APC- (as opposed to IFV-) based units. No such weapons had been avaliable in the 1905.
2. Having both intermediate round for infantry rifle and full-power round for machinegun basically doubles logistic load, and it was hard enough as it is.
3. Closely related to the #2, any supply officer in 1900 would soil his pants at thought of delivering amounts of ammo necessary for infantry units with AK-47. Trucks was at their infancy and railroad network was not as developed as in 1930-s. Remember, that SMLE at this time had special latch converting it from magazine feed to single-shot, with magazine being reserved for "most critical" moments of a battle.
4. Smokeless powder in 1905 was not suitable for gas-operated systems. Read about travails of the "potato digger".
5. Several important technologies had been developed or greatly improved in 1905-1947 which essentially allowed to built AK-47 as reliable rifle. If built using 1905 technologies, it would suffer all kinds of problems after 1 or 2 months of active combat service (barrel will be worn and bolt damaged).
6. Horse. Military rifle of 1905 had to immobilize horse with a single hit. Not easy with intermediate round.

Same discougaring analysis can be done for almost every weapon discussed here. Katyushas were not possible before great improvement in propellant technology. Propellant charges in WWII-vintage Katyusha rockets are as distant from anything avaliable around 1900 as M-16 from Brown Bess. Actually Russian Imperial army retired it's black-powdered rockets (probably best known black powdered designs) around 1880, as they utterly lost to improved breechloading artillery. Black powder-firing Gatling is inherently unreliable and no amount of mechanical tinkering is going to deal with that, as reason of flaw is with black powder itself, not with design. And so on, and so forth.
 
Why is this in the After 1900 Forum? Should it be moved?

Hang gliders, balloons, zeppelins. Leonardo da Vinci drew lots of futuristic stuff-- didn't he try to design a helicopter?
 
Covers all times...

Why is this in the After 1900 Forum? Should it be moved?

Hang gliders, balloons, zeppelins. Leonardo da Vinci drew lots of futuristic stuff-- didn't he try to design a helicopter?


The first few items I thought of were all either 20th century, or close to it, but this could legitmately be in either forum, IMVHO.
 
1915: Federov Avtomat, a full fledged assault rifle manufactured in Russia. It was used in combat, but not many were made due to the Russian Civil War. Although it needed good care, it was a decent gun, and all weapons get more reliable if the effort is made. Applicatins obvious, especially for trench warfare and urban fighting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedorov_Avtomat
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as86-e.htm[/quote]


This was a innovative concept as it was a rifle capable of full auto fire, one of the first. There was an Italian design that was even earlier then this one. Another problem with the Federov was that it fired the full sized Russian .30 caliber rifle round, which was next to impossible to control on automatic for a untrained conscript are a man of little strength and size.
Accuracy was a major problem

This was also the same problem for the Browing Automatic Rifle (B.A.R) that fired a full sized 30/06 round. It was very hard to control on automatic. It kicks like a bull. Although Bonny and Clide Used sawed offed B.A.R's well though..

Also the M-14 and the FAN/FAL weapons were just powerful to control on autofire. The ammo was just to much...


ALL Just like the Fedorov..
 
Department of Overlooked Technologies, Unusual Effects, and Forgotten Weapons

I’m trying to compile a partial list of technologies that were overlooked or forgotten, yet could have come into common use significantly earlier, and would have had a potentially major impact (ASB’s need not apply)

There are a fair number of them, if you look. Any others people can think of? Or any hidden effects that could come out besides the obvious?

1888: Munroe effect: The effect that makes shaped charges work was known as early as 1888, yet was not seen as militarily useful until the Second World War. Even if a shaped charge shell would have been problematical, certainly the effect could have been useful for demolitions long before World War II, and perhaps as a shaped charge shell or bomb.

1893: M1893 Gatling Gun. Dr. Gatling electrified his famous gun, giving a rate of fire of 3000 rounds per minute, an unheard of rate of fire, and unmatched until the 1950’s. This gun, I found described in GURPS High-Tech, which, to the best of my knowledge, is quite well researched. Reliability was not great, but only one was ever made. It needed external power, so would not have been a field gun…but emplaced, or on a ship or vehicle, very useful.

1904: Radar’s potential was demonstrated, yet the naval authorities saw no use for it. Even detecting ememy ships a few miles out, in fog or night, would have been very useful in the Great War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar

1915: Federov Avtomat, a full fledged assault rifle manufactured in Russia. It was used in combat, but not many were made due to the Russian Civil War. Although it needed good care, it was a decent gun, and all weapons get more reliable if the effort is made. Applicatins obvious, especially for trench warfare and urban fighting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedorov_Avtomat
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as86-e.htm



This was a innovative concept as it was a rifle capable of full auto fire, one of the first. There was an Italian design that was even earlier then this one. Another problem with the Federov was that it fired the full sized Russian .30 caliber rifle round, which was next to impossible to control on automatic for a untrained conscript are a man of little strength and size.
Accuracy was a major problem

This was also the same problem for the Browing Automatic Rifle (B.A.R) that fired a full sized 30/06 round. It was very hard to control on automatic. It kicks like a bull. Although Bonny and Clide Used sawed offed B.A.R's well though..

Also the M-14 and the FAN/FAL weapons were just powerful
 

hammo1j

Donor
Great work - liked the Russian Seaplane.

Here's my stab at stuff.

1. Computing: The network database will make a revival to re-upsurp the relational database around about 2020 when people realise they have sacrificed a 20x performance gain for no increase in simplicity, indeed, quite the opposite since they have to explicitly define the relations between tables implicit in the network model.

2. There's possibly a whole raft of stuff out there that is waiting for some material breakthrough for instance Wankel engine needs decent rotor seal material since these tend to wear out.

3. Non twelve tone music with strange key signatures might make a comeback as the existing 12 tone and 2/4 or 3/4 or 4/4 gets overworked.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Eureka!

Moveable type allows printing tickets, books, journals and newspapers.This invention has a cascade effect as knowledge is easily stored and distributed. Any society capable of molding lead could impliment this really well.

Electric dynamo and motor have been done early (Newton) for an interesting POD. Since the principle behind it doesn't need to be understood, the Transistor and solid state electronics could make an appearance anytime after very pure silicon crystals are first formed (1919).

Chemical processes (TNT by temerature controlled reaction, Haber Bosch process for ammonia, Besemer/Basic Oxygen steelmaking, etc) offer rich pickings for AH.

Pasteurised Foodstuffs in bottles and cans really help you get through a rough winter. Sterilizing surgical instruments and limiting pain and/or infection with chemicals can change who lives in an AH.

edit: The wheel, stirrup and navigational aids (Compass, Sextant, Lunar Distances, Chronometer) increase the known world and the resources within it that are available for advances.

The slide rule. Trigonometry. Calculus. Flight. Telescope. Microscope. Most advances have their momments when they would have been handy before their time and very few couldn't have happened sooner with a bit of luck.
 
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Another problem with the Federov was that it fired the full sized Russian .30 caliber rifle round, which was next to impossible to control on automatic for a untrained conscript are a man of little strength and size.
Accuracy was a major problem
Fedorov did not use 7.62x54R. He developed special rimless round, but at the end rechambered his system for Japanese Arisaka round, which was somethere in-between full-power and intermediate cartridge.

They say it was notoriously complicated and extremely temperamental. All in all, not a good weapon for conscript army.
 
Ummmm no. Antibiotics have no effect on viruses.

I wasn't thinking when I wrote that. None the less, sulfa drugs would have saved a lot of lives in the first half of the 20th century if its medical use was realized right away. In powder form it was used to dress battle wounds in WWII. It could serve in the same fashion in WWI.
 
Actually AK-47 (low-powered rugged auto/semiauto rifle) in 1905 is a wonderful example. Yes, it could be built then, but:
1. Intermediate round is inherently underpowered for long-range shooting. AK is useless farther than 500 m, at least for an average conscript soldier. Today this is covered by squad- or platoon-level "universal" machineguns, such as PK or MAG, plus wide range of mortars, vehicle-mounted heavy weapons and such. And even with that Soviets kept designated marksmen with full-powered semi-auto rifle (SVD) in all APC- (as opposed to IFV-) based units. No such weapons had been avaliable in the 1905.
...
It's hard to hit anything with the AK past 300 meters actually. None the less over 90% of infantry combat takes place within that distance, which is why the AK intermediat ammunition was designed that way.

Put it another way, modern 3rd World armies love the AK even though they are short on longer range weapons. They would under no circumstances switch to bolt action Mausers for its longer range advantage or more econmical with ammunition useage. Having firepower superiority, even if briefly, can change the outcome of engagements.

Same discougaring analysis can be done for almost every weapon discussed here. Katyushas were not possible before great improvement in propellant technology. Propellant charges in WWII-vintage Katyusha rockets are as distant from anything avaliable around 1900 as M-16 from Brown Bess. Actually Russian Imperial army retired it's black-powdered rockets (probably best known black powdered designs) around 1880, as they utterly lost to improved breechloading artillery.

A common rocket propellent used today is Ballistite, which is similiar to cordite and available since late 19th century. Rocket technology stagnated because rifled artillery was far more accurate. This remained true in WWII. However by WWII artillery production could no longer meet the demands of war and rockets were used as a cheaper substitute. The only performance advantage rockets had was being able to be fired off small ships in coastal or riverine bombardment.
 
Moveable type allows printing tickets, books, journals and newspapers.This invention has a cascade effect as knowledge is easily stored and distributed. Any society capable of molding lead could impliment this really well.
I sometimes wonder would the Roman Empire have fallen if they had paper and moveable type. I doubt it, with the proliferation of information any political collapse would only be a temporary setback. It wont take long before the educated citizentry to re-establish political order.

Electric dynamo and motor have been done early (Newton) for an interesting POD. Since the principle behind it doesn't need to be understood, the Transistor and solid state electronics could make an appearance anytime after very pure silicon crystals are first formed (1919).
I'd like to see an elaboration on that.

Chemical processes (TNT by temerature controlled reaction, Haber Bosch process for ammonia, Besemer/Basic Oxygen steelmaking, etc) offer rich pickings for AH.
Yup, it's actually surprising to me that TNT wasn't discovered in ancient times, given the simplicity of its manufacture. It's quite possible some alchemist came close to it, only to have blown himself up by accident.

The Bessemer steel making process was already in use by the Chinese since Christ's time. It took steampower to take it to the next level.

Earlier alloyed steel could have been possible as well. Nickel and silicon steel would have been within the ability of anyone able to melt steel, resulting in much stronger metals.

Pasteurised Foodstuffs in bottles and cans really help you get through a rough winter. Sterilizing surgical instruments and limiting pain and/or infection with chemicals can change who lives in an AH.
Alternatively Germ Theory as religion/superstition.

edit: The wheel, stirrup and navigational aids (Compass, Sextant, Lunar Distances, Chronometer) increase the known world and the resources within it that are available for advances.
Stirrup and the horse harness are two puzzling late developments in horse tact.

The slide rule. Trigonometry. Calculus. Flight. Telescope. Microscope. Most advances have their momments when they would have been handy before their time and very few couldn't have happened sooner with a bit of luck.
Slide rule, that's good one. I was just thinking about that.

Hang gliding would require the earlier invention of the Rogallo wing. Hot air ballooning could have been done much earlier. The pulsejet engine was entirely doable long before internal combustion engine. Which means early powered flight could have been jet powered, before switching to propellers when the internal combustion engine became more sophisticated.
 
I think the water wheel could have been spread more in Europe earlier on. The Romans knew how to build them, and did extensive work with them, especially in Spain, but used them mostly to remove water from mines. They were never developed into industry because the Romans were too fond of using masses in labor. Water wheels themselves would be a pretty large but simple leap in advancement, they can be used to mill grains of course, precision cut logs, pound metal, etc. Plus they'd ingrain the idea of spinning wheels and water/mechanical power into the European thought making other leaps like steam engines less of a shot in the dark.
 
If windpowered water pumps could be more sophisticated earlier, something like the Aermotor pump, water towers could have been built earlier and with it greater urbanization and agriculture.
 
Possibly one of the most overlooked concept is dental hygene. Brushing teeth regularly only became widespread after WWII. Flossing came even later. A lot of the developed world still don't make a habit of visiting the dentist.
 
Dental problems became widespread only after the introduction of cheap, readily-available refined sugar. People in the ancient world and the middle ages had a whole lot fewer decay-related problems (although many had enamel wear due to stone-ground flour). Besides, chew-bundles (liquorice root + sage + rosemary + whatever) were quite common, and they were pretty effective in cleaning both physically (through the rubbing action of the fibres) and chemically (the many antiseptic oils in the herbs).
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Another one:

Malthusian catastrophe concept. Failure to understand the problems of exponential population growth has ruined this planet. If we had half the population with stable replacement level growth, much of the pollution and resource depletion problems would solve themselves.

Before the Pill, however, HOW do you do this? The one thing you can't do is stop people from having sex. Should we promote war and/or disease?

So this is mainly going back to developing the Pill earlier.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
WI the Wright brothers had utilized a jet for power. There was an Italian (I think) who made a crude one in 1910 and the principle was known since antiquity but there were problems with heat and no metals then existing that could bear it. The reciprocating engine was also just then being developed as an almost perfect power plant for flight if made correctly.
 
WI the Wright brothers had utilized a jet for power. There was an Italian (I think) who made a crude one in 1910 and the principle was known since antiquity but there were problems with heat and no metals then existing that could bear it. The reciprocating engine was also just then being developed as an almost perfect power plant for flight if made correctly.

You're thinking of Henri Coanda, a Romanian inventor, who built the first motorjet plane - the 'Coanda-1910', appropriately enough - in 1910. As i understand it, it was an interesting, but ultimately impractical idea, since the plane had to carry around the weight of a piston engine, as well as the jet assembly. Diagram from the wiki page, showing the basic idea:
800px-WRDK.svg.png

(note, some designs had the piston engine also driving a propeller, others didn't). The explanation in the wiki article seems clearer than I could make it, so I'll quote it:
"At the heart the motorjet is always an ordinary piston engine (hence, the term motor), but instead of this driving a propeller, it drives a compressor. The compressed air is channeled into a combustion chamber, where fuel is injected and ignited."
From that point on, it works the same as a normal jet engine, using the hot exhaust to generate thrust.
 
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