Deo Vindice: A Very Southern Scandal

I don't think any of the KY or VA cities would be either big enough or central enough - Richmond may be the capital, but it's a second-tier city in terms of population and location. I'm guessing it will be something like DC - a government town, and cosmopolitan by CSA standards, but not much there other than government.

I'm of the mind that the Hampton Roads/VA Beach area may reach a sufficient level of development to be considered a major city. Maybe not one of THE major cities like Houston or Atlanta, but maybe #9 or 10 in the top ten at best; much of this will depend on tourism/beach season fans, and shipping. Ditto for Charleston, which I agree might also become a cultural center if not well populated.


Were any Floridian cities developed and livable enough at the turn of the twentieth century to support a movie industry? My understanding is that before air conditioning, southern Florida was only semi-habitable...

AFAIK the "semi-tropics" were more in the South Florida/Everglades region, which both Orlando and Tampa are north of by a good amount. However, if that's still too steamy there's always Panama City or Pensacola in the Panhandle, which while still subtropical like the rest of the south isn't THAT bad. One of the reasons that LA became the movie capitol of the US is that it's on the Pacific (ergo, lots of beautiful backdrops to be shot using the sunset), as well as a steady and sunny climate. Those kind of factors play a big part in shooting a movie earlier on in cinema history, so they will likely do so again ITTL.

True enough, and Northern music will be weird by our standards. The CSA's music may sound recognizable to us, because it will have the African-American and white Southern influences that dominate American music, but the USA as a separate country with no Great Migration won't have these things. Maybe the dominant influence on USA music would come from Eastern Europe - "gypsy jazz" or even klezmer-jazz. Probably a lot of Italian influence too, and maybe Middle Eastern if the USA draws significant numbers of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants. Northern music will be eclectic, and I can't even imagine what the South will do with it.

Yikes, I'd kinda be willing to sample that. I get the image that a sort of proto-World/Trance music scene may also come into play with sufficient Indian/Middle Eastern immigration much earlier. But don't forget, the North will likely develop its own syncretism of Southern music with their own influences (something like Italo-Southern "opera rock", perhaps? :p).

Also, assuming rap/hip-hop isn't butterflied away, I also think it would grow in the CSA as well given the higher black population compared to the north. Furthermore, themes of oppression and/or segregation could well feed into the fire behind its formation, making it even more controversial (and therefore, more popular/palatable to the 18-25 crowd regardless of race). Of course, the same applies here as above WRT cross-border influences and styles.

I get the feeling that the CSA in 2012 is something like the 1970s in OTL - i.e., that the civil-rights struggle is a relatively recent memory, and that it may have been more protracted - but that's just a feeling. Hopefully our host will enlighten us further.

Perhaps; a lot depends on race relations between the end of the War of Confederate Independence* and the WWII/mid-20th. Century era. While a Confederate government would seem a likely (and logical) harbinger of doom for black rights, a Southern victory would also do away with some (not all) animosity against their ex-slaves as scapegoats for losing the war.
 
One could say that the whole Deep South was only semi-habitable (in summer) before the invention of air conditioning. IIRC, the Atlantic coastal strip of Florida, a much more salubrious area compared to say the Everglades, down to Miami/Miami Beach was well-populated by the 1920's/1930's, and the Miami/Miami Beach area became a major resort in the 1920's in OTL.

If you want a TTL major city for Tennessee and a center for popular music, Memphis is an obvious choice as a key Mississippi River port.
 
One could say that the whole Deep South was only semi-habitable (in summer) before the invention of air conditioning. IIRC, the Atlantic coastal strip of Florida, a much more salubrious area compared to say the Everglades, down to Miami/Miami Beach was well-populated by the 1920's/1930's, and the Miami/Miami Beach area became a major resort in the 1920's in OTL.

If you want a TTL major city for Tennessee and a center for popular music, Memphis is an obvious choice as a key Mississippi River port.

Not to be an Internet Tough-guy, but I don't think the South is that horrible; I spent several months apiece in Central Texas and Pensacola without working AC in the summertime, and I'm still here ;) I guess that depends on one's definition of "habitable".

Your points WRT Florida and the status of Memphis are well-made.
 
Not to be an Internet Tough-guy, but I don't think the South is that horrible; I spent several months apiece in Central Texas and Pensacola without working AC in the summertime, and I'm still here ;) I guess that depends on one's definition of "habitable".

Your points WRT Florida and the status of Memphis are well-made.

I'm a native of South Carolina and have spent most of my life below the Mason-Dixon line. Believe me, I know...firsthand. :eek::D
 
Depending on how the war went, it could've been due to the stipulations of the peace treaty (apparently Britain gets involved, so who knows how well the CSA made out compared to the USA).

Or the US could have sold it to the Rebs...a Southern "Seward's Folly"?

Do the big Railroad conglomerates like Amtrak and BNSF exist ITTL, or are the L&N and SP still around?
 
I'm of the mind that the Hampton Roads/VA Beach area may reach a sufficient level of development to be considered a major city. Maybe not one of THE major cities like Houston or Atlanta, but maybe #9 or 10 in the top ten at best; much of this will depend on tourism/beach season fans, and shipping.

And on how much of a navy the CSA will have - in OTL, Newport News grew as a naval shipbuilding center. A couple of the Gulf ports might also be big fleet bases and navy yards.

AFAIK the "semi-tropics" were more in the South Florida/Everglades region, which both Orlando and Tampa are north of by a good amount.

Fair point, and I agree about the beach setting, although depending on how the CSA's national epic translates to cinema, a location in the mountains or in the Virginia/Carolina piedmont might also have appeal. And I still think there would be a secondary, Spanish-language movie industry in Havana or San Juan (most likely the former).

But don't forget, the North will likely develop its own syncretism of Southern music with their own influences (something like Italo-Southern "opera rock", perhaps? :p).

I'd pay real money to hear opera rock. But yeah, Southern music would be very popular up north, much to the dismay of USA parents, and there would be plenty of crossover, albeit nowhere near as much as if the USA and CSA were one country.

Perhaps; a lot depends on race relations between the end of the War of Confederate Independence* and the WWII/mid-20th. Century era. While a Confederate government would seem a likely (and logical) harbinger of doom for black rights, a Southern victory would also do away with some (not all) animosity against their ex-slaves as scapegoats for losing the war.

There would still be the tensions that flow from emancipation, though - as in OTL, the whites' anxiety would swing away from slave revolts to "now that they're free, they'll come after our wimmin." I'd expect some drastic measures at first to keep the freedmen in their place, something like OTL's abortive Black Codes. Which in turn will affect the civil rights struggle: the African-Confederates will be fighting not only for voting rights and an end to segregation but for things like the right to change jobs freely and the right not to be arrested for insolence. That's one reason I think the CSA's civil-rights battle may last longer - because the African-Confederates will have a longer way to go.

Not to be an Internet Tough-guy, but I don't think the South is that horrible; I spent several months apiece in Central Texas and Pensacola without working AC in the summertime, and I'm still here ;) I guess that depends on one's definition of "habitable".

I did boot camp in South Carolina and AIT in Georgia, both without AC, and I'll go with "semi-habitable." Then again, I'm the kind of guy who actually likes Northern winters.
 
Or the US could have sold it to the Rebs...a Southern "Seward's Folly"?

Possibly, one thing that I get a kick out of whenever somebody brings up a CSA victory scenario is that having access to the Arizona Territory is an automatic Confederate wank...even though it's largely useless land that doesn't yield much for one's money. True, there's minerals to be mined there but the CSA has to industrialise first to take advantage of it, and that won't likely take place outside of the Appalachians until the 20th. century. And there's not much good to come out of a rail-road west if there's no way of reaching the Pacific.

So yes, I also believe it to be a sort of "Davis' Folly" or something alike.

And on how much of a navy the CSA will have - in OTL, Newport News grew as a naval shipbuilding center. A couple of the Gulf ports might also be big fleet bases and navy yards.

That's also true, although I hope that the relationship between whatever base springs up there and the citizenry doesn't end up like OTL's Norfolk (A.K.A. "no sailors on the grass" :mad:....for being in a largely pro-military state, Norfolk's attitude towards the USN is shameful to me). Plus hopefully the Chesapeake doesn't end up the silt pit it has unfortunately become today.

Fair point, and I agree about the beach setting, although depending on how the CSA's national epic translates to cinema, a location in the mountains or in the Virginia/Carolina piedmont might also have appeal. And I still think there would be a secondary, Spanish-language movie industry in Havana or San Juan (most likely the former).

I can also see the appeal of the Piedmont; it's beautiful country and usually has rather mild weather. And don't get me wrong, a movie industry based out of the Caribbean states would be awesome, especially if the industry grows bilingually to allow for a much wider fanbase.

There would still be the tensions that flow from emancipation, though - as in OTL, the whites' anxiety would swing away from slave revolts to "now that they're free, they'll come after our wimmin." I'd expect some drastic measures at first to keep the freedmen in their place, something like OTL's abortive Black Codes. Which in turn will affect the civil rights struggle: the African-Confederates will be fighting not only for voting rights and an end to segregation but for things like the right to change jobs freely and the right not to be arrested for insolence. That's one reason I think the CSA's civil-rights battle may last longer - because the African-Confederates will have a longer way to go.

I see...unfortunately I fear you may be right. Again, we'll just have to see in the coming updates how things play out.

EDIT: Not to be contrary for its own sake, but something occurred to me; IIRC in Zach's Napoleonic Victory TL in the pre-1900s section, New Orleans became the cultural heart of the CSA. In that thread, one point came about that, if it does end up that way, we might see more and more racial tolerance becoming commonplace...after all, this was one place in the OTL Deep South where one's master had as good a chance of being a black man too as well as white, thanks to the cultural influence of the Louisiana Creole community and higher presence of "free people of color". That combined with racial attitudes from the Caribbean states (which while racist at times too was far less heavy-handed about it in sources I've seen) might help mitigate, although not do away with, the more harsh treatment of blacks in the CSA.

I did boot camp in South Carolina and AIT in Georgia, both without AC, and I'll go with "semi-habitable." Then again, I'm the kind of guy who actually likes Northern winters.

Here's the four places in which I've actually resided the longest in my life so far;

1) Virginia Tidewater: ~18 years,
2) Central Texas: ~6 years,
3) Mid-California Coast: 8 months, and
4) Pensacola, Florida: 4.5 months.

Out of the four I've lived, only one is outside the South, and honestly the time spent there and Florida could've been the reverse of each other. And even if I did enjoy Northern winters (which, with all due respect to my Yankee brethren, I absolutely do NOT :p), I suffered some pretty serious frost-bite in my hands during survival training. Personally, I like having all my fingers and toes where they are now :).
 
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I can also see the appeal of the Piedmont; it's beautiful country and usually has rather mild weather. And don't get me wrong, a movie industry based out of the Caribbean states would be awesome, especially if the industry grows bilingually to allow for a much wider fanbase.

Which makes me wonder what the status of Spanish is in this CSA. It's probably an official language in Cuba and Puerto Rico, and possibly in Arizona, but I'm not sure it would have that status on a national level. And even in the Spanish-speaking states, everyone would still learn English by 2012, because it's the language of national politics and because they'd have to know it if they want to get jobs on the mainland.

What about French - still official in Louisiana?

EDIT: Not to be contrary for its own sake, but something occurred to me; IIRC in Zach's Napoleonic Victory TL in the pre-1900s section, New Orleans became the cultural heart of the CSA. In that thread, one point came about that, if it does end up that way, we might see more and more racial tolerance becoming commonplace...after all, this was one place in the OTL Deep South where one's master had as good a chance of being a black man too as well as white, thanks to the cultural influence of the Louisiana Creole community and higher presence of "free people of color". That combined with racial attitudes from the Caribbean states (which while racist at times too was far less heavy-handed about it in sources I've seen) might help mitigate, although not do away with, the more harsh treatment of blacks in the CSA.

Nothing wrong with being contrary, and it's a fair point. The thing is, most of the states with a large free black population, including Lousiana, were talking about taking rights away from them during the years before the ACW. In a slave society that (a) exists in a largely abolitionist world, and (b) justifies itself by arguing that slavery is the natural condition of a certain race, free members of that race are a threat. And a CSA that maintains slavery into the 1880s or 1890s with the outside world becoming steadily more abolitionist will have to become more totalitarian in order to retain that system, and will crack down even harder on the free black population. In other words, New Orleans gens libres du couleur wouldn't be seen as an example to follow, they'd be seen as a problem.

The generation after the ACW wouldn't be a good time for the African-Confederates, whether slave or free. I'd guess that deportation to Haiti or Liberia would be mooted - hell, even Northern liberals mooted such plans in OTL - and that, at least at the beginning, the free black population would be pushed as far to the margins as possible.

Of course we know that in TTL, the African-Confederates weren't deported and that they eventually succeeded in obtaining civil rights. Maybe the shift came after slavery was abolished - at that point, the more "respectable" free blacks might be seen as worth cultivating, and that might be the time when cities like New Orleans, Mobile and Charleston start turning into experiments in racial tolerance. Things could start to get better in the early twentieth century, depending on when and how slavery makes its exit. What we really need is for underboss_3 to show up and make things clear.
 
I could really see a strong push by Southerners to create a colony for Freed Blacks to to immigrate to, maybe Liberia or maybe some other African colony. After all the American Colonization Society received a majority of their funding from Southern Planters in the Ante-Bellum period.

I am really curious to see the demographics of the CSA because I could really see a strong push by the Government to encourage the growth of the White Population by any means necessary especially at the start of Abolition
 
I could really see a strong push by Southerners to create a colony for Freed Blacks to to immigrate to, maybe Liberia or maybe some other African colony. After all the American Colonization Society received a majority of their funding from Southern Planters in the Ante-Bellum period.

I am really curious to see the demographics of the CSA because I could really see a strong push by the Government to encourage the growth of the White Population by any means necessary especially at the start of Abolition

In most CSA-survival scenarios I'd say you had a good point. However, given the information at hand so far, the presence of African-Confederates is a definite sticking point for the Populist-Labor party, so much so that it could come into play should President Edwards' indiscretions come to light. That tells us that, at the very least, black citizens are still around and at least politically useful (and therefore, demographically significant if not necessarily huge).

As a side note, it's pretty bad that by CSA standards, I'd be a bleeding-heart Liberal :eek:. Neat nonetheless.

EDIT: Another possibility for a major city down the road? Birmingham. After all, it was known as the "Pittsburgh of the South", and may well play a key role in the country's eventual and necessary industrialization. Plus it creates a situation where Alabama actually DOES have a large city for once ;)

Anyways, BUMP!
 
Considering it's been about a month and a half since Underboss posted anything in this thread, it's at the least sleeping right now. Hasn't stopped me and others from commenting on it, just no new material right now.

While I'm thinking about it;

Which makes me wonder what the status of Spanish is in this CSA. It's probably an official language in Cuba and Puerto Rico, and possibly in Arizona, but I'm not sure it would have that status on a national level. And even in the Spanish-speaking states, everyone would still learn English by 2012, because it's the language of national politics and because they'd have to know it if they want to get jobs on the mainland.

What about French - still official in Louisiana?

Well, one of the things about the CSA is that each state will likely have more say in its own affairs ITTL compared to the USA; what that means is states such as PR and Cuba likely will establish Spanish as a protected "language of the people" whilst also accommodating English as the language of govt. and trade.

I'm not sure if French or Louisiana Creole would be as endangered as OTL or not; if they can survive into modern day as well as (or better than) OTL, then they could also be recognized in Louisiana and (perhaps Mississippi) as official languages.


Nothing wrong with being contrary, and it's a fair point. The thing is, most of the states with a large free black population, including Lousiana...SNIP

Makes sense, and in a TL where the fate of the African-Confederate population is more ambiguous I'd say you were right on the money WRT resettlement, but here we know that blacks remain a potent demographic bloc, given all the attention the Populist-Labor party gives to minority rights. Like you say, we'll have to hear it from Underboss exactly how things play out for them.

A thought occurs in that same vein; is it possible that there'd be greater "Western expansion" ITTL using blacks to move west? After all, the states of Lee and Arizona wouldn't exactly be high-quality land without access to the Pacific, being mostly desert and all. Lacking a practical way of deporting its African-Confederate people "back to Africa" or even to Haiti, I can see them trying to push for "resettlement" within the CSA to its margins.
 
I have two things to say; first of all, BUMP, and I really hope this TL isn't dead before it even got really started :(. And second;


...
Edwards could survive a sex scandal. However, the president's senior staff knew that campaign finance laws had been skirted to funnel money to the president's mistress. That was a violation of Federal law, and was an impeachable offense.

Not to nitpick, but shouldn't this be "Confederate law"? Seeing as how the CSA is less centralized in terms of government power? I understand that ITTL the central government seems to have a fair amount of power (more than one may perhaps expect from the Confederates, given OTL hindsight), but "Federal" strikes me as a very Yankee kind of phrasing.
 
Well At Least If We Can Keep this Thread Alive, I Want to See How Baseball Occurs in the CSA, How Would This Turn Out along with the USA?, Hope I'm Cheering for the San Francisco Team to Win The World Series!
 
Well At Least If We Can Keep this Thread Alive, I Want to See How Baseball Occurs in the CSA, How Would This Turn Out along with the USA?, Hope I'm Cheering for the San Francisco Team to Win The World Series!

Well IF baseball catches on in the CSA, I would expect the Caribbean states to be big-time havens of the sport, although IIRC it was developed during and after the ACW in Massachusetts, which may butterfly away Southern interest in the sport (something like cricket may take its place, alongside association and C.S. football and maybe basketball).

Up north may be a different matter; baseball spread in popularity due to Northeastern troops playing it whilst in contact with Union troops from elsewhere, who then picked up on it. I can see it therefore still spreading in the realm of popular sports within the USA, wherein SF may well field a fairly decent team to take the World Series. Of course, all this is contingent on the TL not dying and getting some clarification from the author...:p
 
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Do the big Railroad conglomerates like Amtrak and BNSF exist ITTL, or are the L&N and SP still around?

Personally I'd be quite curious to see what became of the Norfolk and Western ITTL, one of the major points that Christain Wolmar made in his book on the American Railroad was the lack of trunk routes in the CSA during the civil war.
 
I'm afraid I'm none too knowledgeable about railroad structures (trunk routes, for example); however, I wonder if perhaps public railroads in the CSA may be used for interstate travel more than in the USA, given the relative expense of building an interstate highway system (that's not to say that private vehicle use would be less in the CSA, but rather that roads would mostly be two and four lane types, at least outside of the city)?
 
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