Denmark with the Russians in the CW?

Hey Guys,

In OTL the Crimean War just had Russia (and some Bulgarian legions) versus the Ottoman Empire, France, Britain and the Kingdom of Sardinia. The Russians lost the war, with it being forced to lose some territory and also demilitarize the island away from its Duchy of Finland.

A year earlier a war had just ended between Denmark and the German states. Though due to a succession crisis the talks became complicated. Let's say the succession issue of Denmark hasn't been solved yet with the Tsar demanding Danish closure of the straits to the Western Powers from entering the Baltic in exchange of support in the succession issue. Denmark will try everything possible to avoid going to war with Britain but the succession issue is essential in keeping the Russian alliance and relations with the German states.

Thus the Tsar forces Denmark into closing the straits to the 'allied' forces. This causes the declaration of war against Denmark now as well. How could Denmark contribute to the war effort? I know it won't make a big difference because of its population and thus small army, but how could its wider impact on the Crimean War be?

Could Prussia invade Schleswig-Holstein and take it? And thus due to this Russia declares war on Prussia also for helping the allies. This then escalates the situation with Austria also declaring war on Russia (due to the German Confederation.) Now we have a war in Europe which involves 5 militarily capable states against 2 states, one of which is militarily capable though another which is totally incapable due to its position and population.

If this situation goes ahead how different would Europe be afterwards? I can imagine that the Treaty would be much harsher on Russia due to the fact that the increased manpower and fronts would cause Russia to face a much more humiliating defeat. Could we see a British Greenland? Along with another nation taking the Danish Virgin Island? Obviously Prussia would most likely annex Schleswig-Holstein, but would we see a puppet-state of Poland being set up by the German Confederation? In fact what would happen to the German Confederation, would it be more unified? What else would we see?
 
GAH.... British Greenland once more... :rolleyes:

Seriously, I see you been reading on my other post' in other threads - fine, though. ;)

Thing is the German situation was a bit more difficult than that and actually the German Confederation mobilized some of its army to which the King of Denmark as Duke of Holstein had to contribute with the Holstein Brigade! in the event of a Russian attack on the German Confederation (or Austria).
And the French tried to make the Germans/Prussians enter the war on the Allied side.

Now this is before Prussia in the competent hand of Bismarck so I'm not sure of whats going to happen but Denmark being forced to honor its Russian alliance is definitely a possibility.
However Denmark at the time is led by slightly competent peoples at least C.A. Bluhme who negotiated the Sound toll 1856 at the conference in Copenhagen was quite competent carrying the difficult event through.
The conference had been called on the initiative of the USA to pay a once only sum for the abortion of the toll. And then refuse to pay the toll.
The principle was decided upon but the negotiations on payment continued until 1857.

The real issue was that Russia wanted Denmark (and Sweden) to close their ports to Allied warships to obstruct their lines of communications in the Baltic.
By competent negotiating C.A. Bluhme managed to convince the Russians of the advantages of Danish neutrality in the war.

Should the Danes be forced into the war on the Russian side the British squadron arriving in Danish waters during March 1854 might have been sent to enforce Allied use of Danish ports and waters.
A situation which would of course mean that Denmark would have to yield in risking another 1807.

Question is if this would make any difference in the German situation - at least it would secure the Baltic for Prussian shipping having the Allied umbrella to slip under and would certainly make for the Danish King to join the Confederation whatever would happen.
And that would have repercussions for the Netherlands too, that were looking to Denmark for its own situation in regard to the Confederation stance.

Prussia would of course be able to take Schleswig-Holstein but sharing a border with Russia...! They didn't have a Bismarck you know. ;)

If this should be the events to differ from OTL; Denmark forced out of de facto alliance with Russia then the after effects could be a Denmark much more dependant upon Russia and just perhaps Russia feeling an obligation come Bismarck and 1864 to support Denmark in a negotiated solution pre-German execution in regard to 1851 London agreement!

And then we just might see a Prussian-Netherlands war at some time to bring the message home with the Danish government before Bismarck decide to slug it out with Austria.
 
Interesting ideas :) So what would be the repercussions of Denmark joining the war? How long could it last before the British and French manage to blast its navy apart and simply blockade its coastal areas if necessary? What would Denmark have to forfeit after this? I was thinking maybe the Faroe Islands, Greenland, the Danish Virgin Islands and Schleswig-Holstein. And the only overseas territory the Danish would be 'allowed' to keep would be Iceland. A bit cliche-ish but sometimes the cliche-ish things will happen.

Also what would happen with Prussia? As you said there's no Bismarck at this point in time, but it would open up another front for the Russians to fight and thus hamper their ability to fight on other fronts. I can imagine the Russians making initial gains, though after a while the Prussians forcing them back and then pushing a little into Russia (mainly into Privislinsky Krai.) As the Prussians push into this land the Polish and Lithuanians could revolt a decade earlier than OTL. With this revolt and Russia losing the Crimean War I could imagine the Russians giving up in the end and granting both Poland and Lithuania independence (they go onto become separate kingdoms as puppet states of Prussia.)

How likely is any of this?
 
My perception is that the repercussions for Denmark would be slight and I don't see Greenland changing hands ITTL. Think the USA wouldn't like it but I may be wrong.
There wouldn't be much of a fight around Denmark; just a heavy British blow at Copenhagen to take out the Danish Navy and that would be it! A kind of 1801 or 1807 repetion. Whatever C.A. Bluhme would be eager to avoid an engagement to secure Danish interests and probably call for a quick cease-fire and Allied friendly neutrality forced by the circumstances; which just might satisfy the Tsar in order to settle the succession question post-war. Which would be the main Danish consideration!

The worst would be the forcefull abolition of the Sound toll with very small reparations paid to Denmark; in the like of satisfying the King as the original recipient of the toll - part of his personal demesne!
Don't think any country led by royalty would refrain from doing so - such things have a nasty tedency of backfire and after all they were all family more or less. ;)

I know too little of the affairs of the German Confederation at the time to give an educated guess but the King of Prussia was to my opinion a zero.
I don't think Prussia at the time would be able to take Schleswig-Holstein for itself. That sort of thing is what a Bismarck is needed for. (perhaps Susano will enlighten us on this :))
It would also send shock waves into the Netherlands as what to happen to their German lands.

As I know von Roon hadn't at this time begun reorganizing the Prussian army and wouldn't until becoming minister of War 1859; Moltke hadn't been made chief-of-staff yet but was aide to the Prince Frederick.
So I'm not sure we would see any spectacular Prussian advances into Russia but it should tie up substantial Russian forces.

If Prussia should succede in moving the Confederation to war that would probably be in alliance with Austria as it was still the senior partner in the Confederation. TTL would see the Holstein Brigade be part of the Confederation army.

I know I'm a non-enthustiac on this but I'm trying to look up OTL and see changes according to it.
 
Hmm... How about a smaller mainland US, one that's had the Southern States secede (the states from Tennessee and North Carolina southward.) It also doesn't have New England and doesn't have any states further west than Kentucky and Illinois. It's also in joint ownership of the western portion of the Michigan Territory with British Louisiana. (Yes this is from a TL I'm doing BTW.)
Could a more expansionist British North America take Greenland then? Seeing as the US can't really kick up a fuss due to its size. Say the UK would take Greenland but leave the Faroe Islands or something?

Also it's interesting to read about the state of Prussia at this time without Bismarck and really how poor they would be in war. And also the repercussions Prussia could have on other nations.

Thanks for the advise again :)
 
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