Denmark to the elbe.

Susano

Banned
I had got that far myself, but now I'm wondering how the fact that Denmark also has Sweden in personal union will affect perceptions and attitudes in Slesvig-Holstein and the other German possessions.

Maybe similar to Austria-Hungary, with Denkmark-Sweden seen as a "prison of nations", etc. - but on the other hand an economical union with advantages.(Though probably for the German territories it would be economcialyl even mroe advantageous to join any potential German customs block, so unlike with A-H, this might be no great argument).
 

Thande

Donor
Maybe similar to Austria-Hungary, with Denkmark-Sweden seen as a "prison of nations", etc. - but on the other hand an economical union with advantages.(Though probably for the German territories it would be economcialyl even mroe advantageous to join any potential German customs block, so unlike with A-H, this might be no great argument).

Well in the future of LTTW we're going to see Germany divided into several powerful states, but most of which (except Austria and Hanover) are in a gradually deepening customs union with each other...essentially if there is going to be a state called Germany in TTL (and I'm not sure if there will be yet) it is more likely to result from something similar to a eurofederalist's wet dream on a smaller scale, than by war and victory by a dominating state as OTL. So Denmark and its possessions (all the way up to Hammerfest) are also in the German customs union...
 

Susano

Banned
Well in the future of LTTW we're going to see Germany divided into several powerful states, but most of which (except Austria and Hanover) are in a gradually deepening customs union with each other...essentially if there is going to be a state called Germany in TTL (and I'm not sure if there will be yet) it is more likely to result from something similar to a eurofederalist's wet dream on a smaller scale, than by war and victory by a dominating state as OTL.

Well, at least its reason 1, and not reason 3 :rolleyes::D

Hm, what then about those German territories belonging to non-German states? I think Eurofederalism is a weak comparision for one particular reason: The high amount of Euroskepticism IOTL, whereas Pangermanism will have very, very much popular support. Hence, support for it and for even, err, mroe extreme emasures in its name might be widespread. So, IMO, its not really plausible to have Germany grow together EU-style.
 

Rockingham

Banned
Maybe similar to Austria-Hungary, with Denkmark-Sweden seen as a "prison of nations", etc. - but on the other hand an economical union with advantages.(Though probably for the German territories it would be economcialyl even mroe advantageous to join any potential German customs block, so unlike with A-H, this might be no great argument).
Hmmmm....perhaps if the union is a democracy though, that will serve as advantage enough to tie the various multi-lingual regions together. Especially if the nation/s to the south, whether they unite Germany or not, are not democratic.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Maybe similar to Austria-Hungary, with Denkmark-Sweden seen as a "prison of nations", etc. - but on the other hand an economical union with advantages.(Though probably for the German territories it would be economcialyl even mroe advantageous to join any potential German customs block, so unlike with A-H, this might be no great argument).

It will be more like France a clear majority belong to ethnic group the Scandinavians (or nordic that the hell they are gonna call this group), with a few other minorities like the German which are surviving, but loosing a little ground in Slesvig, and the Finns, the Friesians and the Sami which is decline with more and more speaking Scandinavian.
 

Redbeard

Banned
In medieval times and earlier the boundary between Danes and Germans was roughly at the small river of Ejder at the town of Slesvig. South of that were dense forrest making it a natural border. Placing the Danish-German border there permanently would only require small PoDs and actually was seriously considdered after WWII.

Going down to the Elbe (Hamburg) permanently would require relatively early PoDs if not to confront with later German nationalism, but many plausible could be found.

One has already been mentioned (Carlton Bach) in strengthening the Danish Kings in their medieval strides with German nobles.

Removing the House of Gottorp as an international player would very much strengthen the Danish Royal House and in itself reduce or remove the later S-H question. (The Gottorps were a sideline hating their Oldenburg "cousins" and allways ready to stir up trouble, not at least by claims on large parts of S-H, originally IIRC also on the Danish throne).

PoDing away a line in the 1460 treaty mentioning Slesvig and Holsten as unseparable would remove an important formal legitemacy for both the Gottorps and the S-H question in itself, but of course not the later language and national question. It would rather mean the Kingdom including all of Slesvig and only Holstein being a German Duchy ruled by the King of Denmark.

With Denmark (or the King of Denmark) being strengthened by the absense of the Gottorps I guess it would not be impossible to get away with a "danification" of Holstein. Historically the rejection of German language etc. started in Denmark in the 1770s and the Danes thus have until mid 19th century to complete the danification until the Germans get not only pissed but also strong. With no 1460 treaty, no Gottorps and no German speaking majority I doubt we will see much of a 1864 war. The danification will probably be quite rough, and in many ways you could call the Danes then the Serbs of the 19th century.

In OTL both the Serbs and Danes have so far ended being beaten heavily up, but in this ATL the question is if the strengthening of the King of Denmark will mean Prussia and German unification (as we know it) ending up being the bruised one.

The Gottorps in OTL also were important in the Danish-Swedish strides, the Gottorps always being a thorn in the side of the Danes while fighting the Swedes. Add in Christian IV having a little more luck in his 1620s intervention in the 30-years war and ending up with the OTL Swedish possessions in N-Germany - and we have the King of Denmark be a very heavy player on the German scene. The Duke of Brandenburg would likely become a Danish vassal in the strides with/about Saxony/Poland and with a little luck the King of Denmark ends up an Elector to the Imperial throne.

If/when nationalism rises, the King of Denmark and the Empeor will be natural allies.

Seen from Denmark such a TL would have the German part of the realm be even heavier relative to the Danish, even if Scania, Halland and Blekinge remain Danish. Most likely that will mean Platdeutsch being the winning language in all of Denmark and N.Germany, and linguistics will provide the neccessary definitions and reseach making the old Danish just a now superflous Platdeusch dialect (that is how social sciences work).

In Germany it however also means Hochdeutsh remaining a German dialect spoken in a part of Germany only - which in itself will make any serious pan-German ambitions as wanky as a Scandinavian Union in OTL today.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
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