Denmark/Jylland becoming part of united Germany?

[Alternate History]

Here's an AHC for y'all: What's the most plausible way of making either all of Denmark or only Jylland become a part of a united German state during the German unification period (i.e. POD not before 1848, if possible)? I was just inspired to wonder about this because the Jylland peninsula looks like a pleasant natural extension of Germany's territory and it'd look cool on the map.

Basically, the only limitations is that Denmark (or Jylland) should become part of a German national state and plausibly integrated for a long time - thus no communist federation that annexes whatever it can get nor a pan-Germanic state that tries to annex everything remotely Germanic. Just these territories becoming part of a united Germany in order to achieve a cool map and (for IC justification) to solve the same issues that the construction of the Kiel Canal solved.

How plausible would this be? Can it be done peacefully or semi-peacefully through gunboat diplomacy? (I'm thinking that taking Jylland only might actually be less plausible since it would require bisecting the Danish state through a blatant land grab while leaving a permanently hostile remnant and focal point of Danish nationalism just next to Jylland.) If not, what's a way for Germany to annex Denmark without making way too many enemies?

 

[pompejus]

The problem is obvious. Denmark is, obvious to everyone, not a German nation. The Danes aren't Germans and don't want to become part of Germany. The German nationalist don't consider the Danes to be Germans and don't want to include them into Germany. Also Denmark is not historically part of Germany or the holy Roman Empire. So basicly noone will accept it if someone annexes Denmark to Germany. It would be an act of unacceptable agression on the part of Germany.

That said, I suspect someone will quickly will point out that the king of Denmark at one point was considering the German confederation (which is not Germany though). Btw it wouldn't be sonething that the Danes would accept though.

 

[Don Quijote]

Assuming Communism hasn't turned up yet, I think the German state will have to be aggressive and pan-Germanic to seize Denmark. They'd obviously go for Luxembourg and Alsace-Lorraine first, and by that stage you have the Franco-Prussian War.

The Danes held off the Prussians in 1848-50 in the First Schleswig War, and I think that if they had pushed on far enough north in the Second, someone might have intervened. On the other hand it's never going to happen peacefully as long as Denmark retains a half decent military. Apart from Schleswig-Holstein, none of Denmark was particularly pro-German as far as I know.

 

[Alternate History]

(Edit: this post is in response to pompejus.) Yes, well, I was hoping that pragmatic opportunism could perhaps outweigh that problem. It is true that Danes aren't Germans - but neither are the Poles, and the Prussians still happily annexed and settled it. Of course, Denmark is a bit different in this regard, but Prussia could always use the excuse that the Danes are culturally much closer to Germany than the other Scandinavian nations and all that stuff... (Perhaps this is the change of mentality in the German nationalist movement that we need to effect somehow?) and since there aren't that many Danes there wouldn't be a problem of them wielding excessive problem in Germany, either.

Now, the Danish people will obviously not be fans of the idea at first, yes. But will they be in a position to do anything about it? More to the point, if the Danish king did join the German Confederation (which sounds interesting) is there any way of forcing or sweettalking the Danish elite into further going along with the unification? (Frankly, I'm not sure how constitutional the Danish monarchy was at the time, i.e. how much say the Danish people had in such a decision, by peaceful means anyway.)

 

[Don Quijote]

It is true that Danes aren't Germans - but neither are the Poles, and the Prussians still happily annexed and settled it. Of course, Denmark is a bit different in this regard, but Prussia could always use the excuse that the Danes are culturally much closer to Germany than the other Scandinavian nations and all that stuff.

I hope you don't mind me replying too, but while the Prussians might have 'happily annexed' Poland, it wasn't as if the Poles were very happy about it. Within 15 years the Poles had re-established themselves as an independent country again, the (admittedly short-lived) Duchy of Warsaw. Nobody else minded about Poland, since all three of its neighbours had claims to bits of it, but Denmark is definitely a different case.

 

[pompejus]

(Edit: this post is in response to pompejus.) Yes, well, I was hoping that pragmatic opportunism could perhaps outweigh that problem. It is true that Danes aren't Germans - but neither are the Poles, and the Prussians still happily annexed and settled it. Of course, Denmark is a bit different in this regard, but Prussia could always use the excuse that the Danes are culturally much closer to Germany than the other Scandinavian nations and all that stuff... (Perhaps this is the change of mentality in the German nationalist movement that we need to effect somehow?) and since there aren't that many Danes there wouldn't be a problem of them wielding excessive problem in Germany, either.

Now, the Danish people will obviously not be fans of the idea at first, yes. But will they be in a position to do anything about it? More to the point, if the Danish king did join the German Confederation (which sounds interesting) is there any way of forcing or sweettalking the Danish elite into further going along with the unification? (Frankly, I'm not sure how constitutional the Danish monarchy was at the time, i.e. how much say the Danish people had in such a decision, by peaceful means anyway.)

There is a very big difference between the late 18th century, when Prussia conquered Poland and the middle 19th century, the time you are talking about. Let me put it this way. No country would accept Prussia (or Germany) simply annexing the independent country of Denmark. It would make Prussia a pariah state, at least for a while.Also noone would accept the excuse of German nationalism Prussia used for expansion OTL. Besides that it would now mean that all other minor countries now actualy have to fear Prussia/Germany. If Germany annexes Denmark without a cause, what is stopping them from annexing the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Switserland, Lichtenstein, Sweden, (northern Italy, Austria, etc. Suddenly all these countries are threathened by Germany and would run into Germanies enemies (Austria and France), while Germany lost the sympaty and support of other European countries (like Russia and Britain). Basicly Germany doing this, would mean an isolated Germany surrounded by ennemies, while at the same time at has several unhappy people living within its borders (the Poles and Danes) and it lost the support of the German nationalists, who now believe Germany is simply an imperialist country and not a country trying to create a German nation.

 

[Alternate History]

(Again, I've been ninja'd while writing this post, so bear that in mind...) Yeah, it's kind of a hard challenge, though I'd say that the Duchy of Warsaw had more to do with Napoleon than any grassroots Polish resistance, didn't it? In 1870 IRL, Germany had around 40 million people, Denmark about 2 million (according to the first source I've found) - it's certainly possible to keep down a population of that size if someone sets their mind to it.

(I'm just thinking about what kind of opposition a Germany enlarged by Denmark would face, assuming it's somehow happened. Russia would probably be miffed at Germany controlling the entrance to/exit from the Baltic, I'd guess. How much would Great Britain care? Would Sweden-Norway align against Germany or could they be persuaded to continue doing business as usual?)

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

After 1864 the Danish king offered Bismarck to become a member of the German Confederation. Bismarck declined. Let's say for some reason he accepts. Perhaps Denmark offering a secret alliance with Prussia. In 1866 Denmark joins Prussia and her allies and is thus part of the North German confederation and eventually part of the German Reich.

Of course there are many problems to solve though.

 

[Gloss]

After 1864 the Danish king offered Bismarck to become a member of the German Confederation. Bismarck declined. Let's say for some reason he accepts. Perhaps Denmark offering a secret alliance with Prussia. In 1866 Denmark joins Prussia and her allies and is thus part of the North German confederation and eventually part of the German Reich.

Of course there are many problems to solve though.

Not going to happen, first Denmark is an established nation and nobody is going to accept to become part of another country as a minor but I could see maybe Germany expanding the internal free market to Denmark and probably diplomatic alliance. Basically in 1864 Prussia agrees to leave Slesvig to Denmark but not Holstein(that was the Danish aim at the start anyway) and Denmark joins the confederation. The Austro-Prussian war is butterflied so I don´t know what would happen, in case a Germany like OTL unifies Denmark is probably going to be under very close ties with it. The naval situation would be very interesting though.

 

[Gloss]

(Again, I've been ninja'd while writing this post, so bear that in mind...) Yeah, it's kind of a hard challenge, though I'd say that the Duchy of Warsaw had more to do with Napoleon than any grassroots Polish resistance, didn't it? In 1870 IRL, Germany had around 40 million people, Denmark about 2 million (according to the first source I've found) - it's certainly possible to keep down a population of that size if someone sets their mind to it.

(I'm just thinking about what kind of opposition a Germany enlarged by Denmark would face, assuming it's somehow happened. Russia would probably be miffed at Germany controlling the entrance to/exit from the Baltic, I'd guess. How much would Great Britain care? Would Sweden-Norway align against Germany or could they be persuaded to continue doing business as usual?)

It would be possible for Germany to maintain it but it´s kind of useless also I don´t see any chain of events leading Germany to annex it without triggering a European diplomatic response.

Germany would not control the Oresund, Scania is still Swedish. The UK would probably care and fear Germany gaining upper hand in the naval race. Sweden-Norway can´t really align itself with either Russia or Germany, it would be like Poland doing so. Just neutrality with connections to Britain(enemy of Russia and Germany).

 

[Westphalian]

In 1864, all territories of the Danish crown together had a population of less than 3 million people, that is less than Bavaria. And far, far less than the 15 million Prussian inside the German Bund alone.

Hell, as Duke of Holstein the King of Denmark had three votes in the Plenum of the Bundestag. Had he been member as King of Denmark, he would probably have had four, like the other kingdoms.

So, even if he had been treated just like the other kings, that still means he would have been utterly dominated by Prussia, by numbers and financial strength alone.

 

[Alon]

German nationalism was heavily based on linguistic lines. It had a claim to Alsace-Lorraine and, sort of, most of Switzerland. The western boundary in the German national anthem is the Meuse, and the southern one is the Adige to avoid talking about Switzerland one way or another. It did not have a claim to Denmark; the linguists at the time knew enough not to consider Danish a German dialect. The northern limit of Germany in the anthem is the Little Belt.