Denmark for Free

Don't forget that the Danish are part of this, and they didn't exactly consider themselves German. Pan-Scandinavianism was also a thing at this time, arguably the Second Schleswig War putting the nail in it from Sweden's refusal to join with Denmark. However changing the flavor of German nationalism to include wider definition of who are 'German' would by nature change the Scandinavianism movement. A political movement that considers Denmark as somehow part of a 'Greater Germany' is a threat that would start causing butterflies by the Second Schleswig War.

Plus, let's not forget that Christian IX was not exactly a popular king at this time. He was a new king, and was dealing with the unjustified blowback from the loss. There's probably a reason he made the proposal in private, because its unlikely the parliament or people would have accepted it. He also clashed with the more liberal parts of Denmark by trying to prevent the spread of democracy. Even if Germany had agreed, I don't think the parliament or people would have just followed his decision. Denmark is no longer a country even by this point where a king can decide foreign policy by himself (It's likely the offer was only made in the first place so that if accepted, he could put it before parliament for a full accounting of their options). While an alt-Germany could use the offer as a reason for war in conquering Denmark, which it definitely could do, the rest of Europe would not allow that. Charles XV of Sweden had a claim on the throne of Denmark, and was a proponent of Scandinavianism. While Sweden failed to aid Denmark in the Second Schleswig War IOTL, a different form of German Nationalism would affect Scandinavian nationalism. Not to mention Sweden would be far, far more likely to declare war to prevent Germany from taking the Sound and save Denmark than it would to help Denmark keep its German fiefs, and the Danes would be far more likely to embrace embrace a policy of Scandinavianism and accept Charles as their rescuer than they would to accept an unpopular king's decision to put Denmark in the German Nationalism movement. Great Britain does not want Germany controlling such a vital naval position as the Sound, and OTL already showed France would use imbalances in the Great Power to attack Germany.

I see no way Denmark could have been annexed in OTL without an alt-Great War. The Danes would almost certainly rebel against Christian IX, and likely by that basis either declare a Republic or if Sweden decides it doesn't want the Germans right across the Sound from them and declares war on the side of the Danes might choose Charles as king. Germany either accepts this and pulls out, or decides to use its army to its advantage. However the Prussians and Austrians likely wouldn't cooperate long term, and Great Britain and France would likely get involved by this point. So this likely ends up with major fighting, and Germany probably, probably, loses. Denmark either is a republic or absorbed into a Scandinavian Union under Charles.

Now its been discussed that an alternate form of German Nationalism would probably be needed, and I agree, but thus form of German Nationalism would almost certainly require to somehow make Scandinavianism nationalism a subset of German nationalism. Otherwise you probably aren't going to get the Danes to agree, and Sweden is already very neutral but can be pushed if Germany is conquering Denmark. You'd also need to the balance of power to be preserved as to not prevent every Great power from jumping to prevent a Greater Germany from forming. I'd say the political situation of Skallagrim's #2 option would indeed be the best chance of achieving this. A Northern Germany with Denmark might be tolerated if the other powers were convinced they could play Northern Germany against Hasburg Southern Germany. I agree that the #1 option just isn't likely to be tolerated without a Great War breaking out with this Germany likely against Great Britain, France, and probably Sweden-Denmark.

A lot of times during negotiations these tentative sort of offers were extended not so much by them being realistic or possible, but just to sound out the other side. In this case, it would likely Christian checking if there was any possibility of the Germans allowing Denmark to retain at least some control over Schleswig-Holstein. Once the offer was refused, it was a clear sign that they wouldn't allow it. I think that's what this was. Not a genuine offer but a negotiating tactic to check the mood of the victorious Germans.
 
OK, here is a challenge.

Find a way to make Britain at odds with the 3rd Republic and reaaaalllyyy want Denmark and it's colonies to go to Germany. Also make Danish parliament think Denmark whole in Germany is better than Denmark minus Schleswig as an independent kingdom. I don't actually mean they get annexed... Bismarck is very much in favor of the Prussian crown again and he still probably doesn't want Denmark for free.
 
it's successor would soon be run by Prussia and he knew it.

You have a source for that claim? When, before 1866, did Christian IX (or indeed anyone else) express such an expectation?


To win acceptance from other regional powers, and probably Britain as well, I think in the event of Denmark joining Germany we'd see Faroes, Iceland, and Greenland given over to another/other power(s). Given that Norway was Swedish at the time but was still a separate country, we could see Norway receiving those lands, as they would later IOTL assert a claim to Greenland. We might even see Britain, Russia, Austria, and France force upon Germany (and Sweden) the following proposition- OK, Denmark can have what it wants and join Germany. But then they have to give Iceland, Faroes, and Greenland to Norway which Sweden will give independence. In return Germany pays Sweden "some amount of money" and some economic concessions, and maybe the Danish West Indies goes to Sweden despite Sweden really not wanting it (but the Great Powers force this because really, who wants a united Germany to have Caribbean/Atlantic naval bases.

Where does "a united Germany" come into it? There was no such thing in 1864, and little or no expectation of it.

Christian was offering to join the German Confederation, which wasn't even close to being united, and to which he already belonged under his "Duke of Holstein" hat.The only difference this would make would be to give him four votes in the Federal Diet instead of three. This of course was why Austria and Prussia turned it down - there was nothing in it for them. As for the other powers, they wouldn't have given a toss, since it would have changed nothing.
 
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You have a source for that claim? When, before 1866, did Christian IX (or indeed anyone else) express such an expectation?




Where does "a united Germany" come into it? There was no such thing in 1864, and little or no expectation of it.

Christian was offering to join the German Confederation, which wasn't even close to being united, and to which he already belonged under his "Duke of Holstein" The only difference this would make would be to give him four votes in the Federal Diet instead of three. This of course was why Austria and Prussia turned it down - there was nothing in it for them. As for the other powers, they wouldn't have given a toss, since it would have changed nothing.
I was doing a hypothetical, sorry I didn't keep to the OP regarding it being at that time. I just assumed we could make it any time period we could to make it work. Jeez.
 
We had this discussion before, and I came to the conclusion that there was only one reason for Bismarck to want Denmark in the German Confederation. It was if he planned to build a colonial empire, as the Danes had a navy, a naval tradition and the colonial know how. If he plan this, he will gave to ensure that Denmark stay on Prussian side in the Austro-Prussian War.
 
All life on earth is related.
Don't be pedantic. Mad Orc is referring to the fact that Danes and Germans can be shown an analogous to "last common ancestor" whereas you can't really do that today for say a Hungarian to a Polynesian; but can, farther back show one for a Dane to an Iranian. In the scheme of human evolution Danish and German relationship is so much closer than many other ethnic/nationalities.
 
Before 1866, the vote distribution of German Confederation´s Plenary Council was as follows:
6 greater states (Austria, Prussia, Hanover, Bavaria, Saxony, Württemberg) each 4 votes, total 24
4 states (Holstein, Baden, Hesse, Luxembourg) each 3 votes, total 12
3 states (Brunswick, Mecklenburg, Nassau) each 2 votes, total 6
27 states each 1 vote
total 69
2/3 majority needed for constitutional changes.
In 1864, with Hanover intact and Austria in German union... Prussia, Bismarck and Wilhelm II might not have liked Denmark in German union, but legally, they were just 4 votes in 69. As was Austria, or Hanover... But what were the prospects, in 1864, or Austria, Hanover, Bavaria and the majority of Germany coming to terms with Denmark that Prussia would not like, yet the majority of German confederation could impose on Prussia?
 
OK, I got my original answer of "yes Denmark really made that offer and it was completely not what Bismark wanted at all"

I guess that makes sense. The "Germany Federation" has a name that makes no sense if they take all of Denmark, and the future "North German Confederation" makes even less sense. If the Fanco-Prussian war isn't butterflied away and turns into a Franco-Prussian-Danish-Saxon War with the French losing, the term "Germany" also makes no sense since that doesn't correspond to the geographical region of Germania and it doesn't correspond to a kingdom full of German speaking people. The Kaiser would be German, but no one called GB German when George I (who couldn't read English for awhile) ascended.

Can anyone come up with a situation where the Danish parliament, Britain, and America are fine with Denmark and its colonies going to Prussia/German overlordship? I don't mean Bismarck agrees (his agenda is unchanged, the only reason for taking Denmark is for the potential of a colonial empire and Denmark's naval traditions, and the only colonies they were ever interested in was a bit of East Africa which they got in OTL along with some colonies that wasn't even on their shopping list in 1870). I also don't mean Denmark actually gets absorbed, just that the powers that isn't Germany/Prussia accepts it.

Don't be pedantic. Mad Orc is referring to the fact that Danes and Germans can be shown an analogous to "last common ancestor" whereas you can't really do that today for say a Hungarian to a Polynesian; but can, farther back show one for a Dane to an Iranian. In the scheme of human evolution Danish and German relationship is so much closer than many other ethnic/nationalities.

Genetic analysis don't always match with language flows and documented history of languages. So talking about "Last common ancestor" when we talk about nationalities is a bit silly. Just as saying there are no natives to anywhere but Africa is true from a certain point of view, but also a bit silly.

I go by intelligibility. Drop 3 Germans who are monolingual into Denmark with 10,000,000 Euros, no electronic payment cards (credit cards for example), or password and see if they can get home or even understand anyone. Oh wait... there are probably Danes who know German. Ok, forget that test.

Throw a monolingual German and Dane and see if they can talk about the latest TV-show or movie they both watched in their respective languages (or in the movie's native language with German and Danish subtitles respectively). Probably the two of them are reduced to mentioning character names, making facial gestures, and watching body languages.

Of course one can argue intelligibility isn't a requirement for a national identity. Austria-Hungary had orders issued in seven languages to soldiers of one division early in WW1. Then again, considering how many of the Polish-speaking contingents deserted the first year...
 
OK, I got my original answer of "yes Denmark really made that offer and it was completely not what Bismark wanted at all"

I guess that makes sense. The "Germany Federation" has a name that makes no sense if they take all of Denmark, and the future "North German Confederation" makes even less sense. If the Fanco-Prussian war isn't butterflied away and turns into a Franco-Prussian-Danish-Saxon War with the French losing, the term "Germany" also makes no sense since that doesn't correspond to the geographical region of Germania and it doesn't correspond to a kingdom full of German speaking people. The Kaiser would be German, but no one called GB German when George I (who couldn't read English for awhile) ascended.

Can anyone come up with a situation where the Danish parliament, Britain, and America are fine with Denmark and its colonies going to Prussia/German overlordship? I don't mean Bismarck agrees (his agenda is unchanged, the only reason for taking Denmark is for the potential of a colonial empire and Denmark's naval traditions, and the only colonies they were ever interested in was a bit of East Africa which they got in OTL along with some colonies that wasn't even on their shopping list in 1870). I also don't mean Denmark actually gets absorbed, just that the powers that isn't Germany/Prussia accepts it.



Genetic analysis don't always match with language flows and documented history of languages. So talking about "Last common ancestor" when we talk about nationalities is a bit silly. Just as saying there are no natives to anywhere but Africa is true from a certain point of view, but also a bit silly.

I go by intelligibility. Drop 3 Germans who are monolingual into Denmark with 10,000,000 Euros, no electronic payment cards (credit cards for example), or password and see if they can get home or even understand anyone. Oh wait... there are probably Danes who know German. Ok, forget that test.

Throw a monolingual German and Dane and see if they can talk about the latest TV-show or movie they both watched in their respective languages (or in the movie's native language with German and Danish subtitles respectively). Probably the two of them are reduced to mentioning character names, making facial gestures, and watching body languages.

Of course one can argue intelligibility isn't a requirement for a national identity. Austria-Hungary had orders issued in seven languages to soldiers of one division early in WW1. Then again, considering how many of the Polish-speaking contingents deserted the first year...
Given the peninsular aspect of (at least the Jutland portion) of Denmark... I'd be very worried if the three hypothetical Germans CAN'T find their way home... "Go south young man" or "face the coastline and follow it to the left or the right, in either direction eventually you'll hit Germany"
 
Given the peninsular aspect of (at least the Jutland portion) of Denmark... I'd be very worried if the three hypothetical Germans CAN'T find their way home... "Go south young man" or "face the coastline and follow it to the left or the right, in either direction eventually you'll hit Germany"

I specifically said "ok forget that test" since that was for humor. Imagine this

https://xkcd.com/1518/

It's like a guy mentioning an idea and then dismissing it while talking out loud about it. "Hang on, I've heard this problem. We need to pour water into the duct until the phone floats up and ... wait, phones sink in water."

So I was like voicing it like someone who was trying to go for something and then dismissing it while thinking about it as flaws start to appear.

Trying to talk about a movie separated by a language is probably one that doesn't have a trivial solution like "face the coastline and follow it to the left or the right, in either direction eventually you'll hit Germany"
 
Well of Humon Tell The truth

come-and-get-it-big-boy.jpg

LMFAO!!!!!

Seriously though this makes me really depressed, for Denmark's situation. The Nazi bit makes me squirm and shiver!!!! :'(
 
Countries for Nothing
Performed by the Danish Straits
(Feat Otto and the Von Bismarcks)


Lyrics

(I want to unite Germany)

Now look at them House of Ho-Ho's that's the way you do it

You march your armies towards the Baltic and North Seas

That ain't workin' that's the way you do it

Countries for nothin' and Denmark for free

Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it

Lemme tell ya them guys ain't dumb

Maybe get a blister on your trigger finger

Maybe hurt your back lifting a bomb

We got to restrain secessionist movements in Holstein

We got to move additional troops in to Schelswig

See the little Koenig with the balding and the mustach

Yeah buddy that's no hair

That little Koenig got his own Armies

That little Koenig he's a millionaire

We got to restrain secessionist movements in Holstein

We got to move additional troops in to Schelswig

We got to restrain secessionist movements in Holstein

We got to move additional troops in to Schelswig

I shoulda learned to use diplomacy

I shoulda learned to build bigger guns

Look at his Army its got it stickin' in the portraits man

We could see our troops on the Run

And he's up there, what's that?

Hungarian noises?

Bangin' on the war drums as if we had attacked Hungary

This ain't workin' there's just no way to do it

Get your countries for nothin' get your Denmark for free

We got to restrain secessionist movements in Holstein

We got to move additional troops in to Schelswig

Listen here

Now that ain't workin' that's the way to do it

Invade both Schelswig and Holstein

That ain't workin' that's the way you do it

Countries for nothin' and Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

Countries for nothin' Denmark for free

(I want to unite Germany)
(Countries for nothin' Denmark for free)
 
The incorporation of Demark into the German Confederation would give a potential nation state of Germania, a stronger position. As the country would have control of the main passage between the Baltic and Atlantic seas. With Swedish canals providing an alternative. This greater Germany would also have an enlarged coast line.
 
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