Denmark for Free

Well of Humon Tell The truth

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Bismarck was trying to take advantage of German nationalism to reform Germany into an actual state. Including a country of non-Germans sort of goes against that. Denmark keeping Holstein, even within the German Empire, just had too much risk of ethnic strife since the proposal was based upon Denmark keeping Holstein and Schleswig. The entire affair had started from Denmark trying to legally integrate these attached duchies into itself.

In essence, it wasn't within the interest of a German state during this time of nationalism to include Denmark.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Hmm - I didn't know this.
Seems an opportunity lost.
Having Denmark with same status as Bavaria (or even lower - Saxony) inside the Empire - does it really have a negative impact?
 
Bismarck was trying to take advantage of German nationalism to reform Germany into an actual state. Including a country of non-Germans sort of goes against that. Denmark keeping Holstein, even within the German Empire, just had too much risk of ethnic strife since the proposal was based upon Denmark keeping Holstein and Schleswig. The entire affair had started from Denmark trying to legally integrate these attached duchies into itself.

In essence, it wasn't within the interest of a German state during this time of nationalism to include Denmark.
The Danish minority in Schleswig-Holstein was not appreciated by the Prussian authorities after 1864
 
The Danish minority in Schleswig-Holstein was not appreciated by the Prussian authorities after 1864
Prussia and Austria had actually agreed at the end of the war to conduct a plebiscite to allow the different areas of Schleswig to vote on whether they wanted to rejoin Denmark. This was probably to avoid the Danish minority, but the Austro-Prussian War really reworked the German state of affairs and Denmark lacked the influence to force Germany to follow through afterwards. It was only after World War I that the plebiscite was conducted and Northern Schleswig returned to Denmark.
Having Denmark with same status as Bavaria (or even lower - Saxony) inside the Empire - does it really have a negative impact?
Beyond the ethnic tensions that still trouble states today, there's also the matter of the other Great Powers. France already attacked in the Franco-Prussian War because the balance of power was breaking down from the events of the unification of Germany. Denmark joining Germany would have only exacerbated that problem, as Denmark was still something of a power at the time.
 

mad orc

Banned
I know that its kind of silly ,but Germany could say that the Danes are related to Germans .I mean ,the two peoples are remotely related to each other ;.
 
I know that its kind of silly ,but Germany could say that the Danes are related to Germans .I mean ,the two peoples are remotely related to each other ;.

It’s just far, far too different in terms of culture and history. Never part of the HRE, don’t speak a German language, a long and storied involvement and participation in Scandinavia.

I mean, maybe you could argue it if Germany incorporated all of Scandinavia, but that’s getting into ridiculous wank territory
 
Is this true?

http://www.quora.com/Why-does-Germany-want-to-control-Denmark/answer/Peter-Valdemar-Mørch-1

Apparently the King of Denmark felt it was so important for his lands to remain united he offered to turn Denmark from an independent kingdom to a Prussia/German substate. In the long run, he would be like one of those German kings under the Prussian Kings. But Germany apparently didn't want Denmark even for free.

He offered to join the German Confederation, which was not run by Prussia. He certainly had no desire for Prussian domination, and had the deal gone ahead would most likely have taken the Austrian side in 1866.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
I know that its kind of silly ,but Germany could say that the Danes are related to Germans .I mean ,the two peoples are remotely related to each other ;.

It’s just far, far too different in terms of culture and history. Never part of the HRE, don’t speak a German language, a long and storied involvement and participation in Scandinavia.

I mean, maybe you could argue it if Germany incorporated all of Scandinavia, but that’s getting into ridiculous wank territory

The Danes and the Germans are actually not "remotely related" but extremely closely related. Granted, after the decline of the Hansa, the regions ended up going in different directions, and that had a major cultural impact on both sides-- but this is hardly something that cannot be overcome. Even by 1864, it's evident that German and Danish aren't that alien to each other. (To compare: a guy I know from my native Netherlands emigrated to Sweden, and learned the language from zero prior knowledge in two months. I'm talking near-fluency. Dutch and Swedish are further "apart" than German and Danish. I'm confident that any Dane who wants to understand German only has to spend a few months among Germans, and vice versa.)

The simple fact is that if (!) the Prussians/Germans had wanted to pursue this kind of thing, they'd have managed it just fine. The most likely scenario is that German just gradually becomes more and more wide-spread, until Danish is mostly just a regional language that the Danes speak besides German (albeit a very widely-spoken one). I thik it'd be a lot like Frisian is in the Netherlands today. (And again: Frisian and Dutch? Less mutually intelligible than German and Danish, by my estimation.)

And let me be clear: I'm mr. "Regional-languages-are-awesome-localism-yay", as most people who know me are very much aware. I'm decidedly not some advocate of cultural hegemony engaging in wish-fulfillment here. The big obstacle to this whole idea is simply not that it would by impossible to execute without big problems. Not at all. If implemented, it would probably work fine. Even the grumbling of foreign powers can be ignored, on the basis that Denmark itself made the request. That sort of voids legitimate objections.

The big obstacle is that this plan didn't fit into the existing Prussian plan for Germany and its unification. If we look for an initial POD there (no Bismarck, a more romantic interpretation of German identity - which had precedent! - leading to a quasi-historical notion of Pan-Germanism...) we can get a lot done. Basically, you need a Germanic equivalent of Pan-Slavism to become popular in Germany. This may even lead to generally more support for the "Greater German solution" (i.e. Germany with Austria in it). That, in turn, might make Prussia (especially in this Pan-Germanist context) more willing to embrace Denmark as "German"-- if only to add more Protestants to balance out all those Catholics!

This isn't an easy result to achieve, and will no doubt require an initial POD related to the exact nature of German nationalism, but it can be done. I'm almost tempted to say that all you need is one ATL book extolling the notion of Pan-Germanism becoming hugely popular in all German countries. It would re-define German nationalism and have the exact right cultural impact, without causing all sorts of political butterflies right away.
 
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TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Going for a Kleindeutschland solution which could embrace Denmark might be a realpolitik attitude - as you Skallgrim, have noted - not only more Lutherans is a Good Thing, but the Grossdeutschland solution with Austria is simply impossible.
I agree with your vision, with Danish becoming a "regional language" of the Danish Kingdom, with widespread bi-lingualism and code-switching.
 
It would be interesting to see what would happen with Greenland and Iceland under Germany.

Also, TBH I don't really see Danish language and culture being valued in this new set of affairs. Most likely Denmark will be rather enthusiastically made to conform to most German standards, with Danish seen as a weird form of German.
 
Hmm - I didn't know this.
Seems an opportunity lost.
Having Denmark with same status as Bavaria (or even lower - Saxony) inside the Empire - does it really have a negative impact?
The Danes would not happy to be forced into German confederation. The general population would be furious.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Also, TBH I don't really see Danish language and culture being valued in this new set of affairs. Most likely Denmark will be rather enthusiastically made to conform to most German standards, with Danish seen as a weird form of German.
The Kaiserreich was a loose federation. What "German standards"?
Common currency.
Customs union.
Educated people probably knew German anyway - so German becoming a compulsory subject in secondary schools will probably be minimal change versus the status quo ante.
Army trained to same doctrine.
Officers expected to know German (uniforms were different up to 1905, maybe Denmark stays with own pattern longer).

"German Faroes, Iceland and Greenland - now that indeed is interesting :)
I missed this issue completely.
And there are the now "German Virgin Islands" ... a dagger pointed at America's heart, I'd wager ...
 
The Danes and the Germans are actually not "remotely related" but extremely closely related. Granted, after the decline of the Hansa, the regions ended up going in different directions, and that had a major cultural impact on both sides-- but this is hardly something that cannot be overcome. Even by 1864, it's evident that German and Danish aren't that alien to each other. (To compare: a guy I know from my native Netherlands emigrated to Sweden, and learned the language from zero prior knowledge in two months. I'm talking near-fluency. Dutch and Swedish are further "apart" than German and Danish. I'm confident that any Dane who wants to understand German only has to spend a few months among Germans, and vice versa.)

The simple fact is that if (!) the Prussians/Germans had wanted to pursue this kind of thing, they'd have managed it just fine. The most likely scenario is that German just gradually becomes more and more wide-spread, until Danish is mostly just a regional language that the Danes speak besides German (albeit a very widely-spoken one). I thik it'd be a lot like Frisian is in the Netherlands today. (And again: Frisian and Dutch? Less mutually intelligible than German and Danish, by my estimation.)

And let me be clear: I'm mr. "Regional-languages-are-awesome-localism-yay", as most people who know me are very much aware. I'm decidedly not some advocate of cultural hegemony engaging in wish-fulfillment here. The big obstacle to this whole idea is simply not that it would by impossible to execute without big problems. Not at all. If implemented, it would probably work fine. Even the grumbling of foreign powers can be ignored, on the basis that Denmark itself made the request. That sort of voids legitimate objections.

The big obstacle is that this plan didn't fit into the existing Prussian plan for Germany and its unification. If we look for an initial POD there (no Bismarck, a more romantic interpretation of German identity - which had precedent! - leading to a quasi-historical notion of Pan-Germanism...) we can get a lot done. Basically, you need a Germanic equivalent of Pan-Slavism to become popular in Germany. This may even lead to generally more support for the "Greater German solution" (i.e. Germany with Austria in it). That, in turn, might make Prussia (especially in this Pan-Germanist context) more willing to embrace Denmark as "German"-- if only to add more Protestants to balance out all those Catholics!

This isn't an easy result to achieve, and will no doubt require an initial POD related to the exact nature of German nationalism, but it can be done. I'm almost tempted to say that all you need is one ATL book extolling the notion of Pan-Germanism becoming hugely popular in all German countries. It would re-define German nationalism and have the exact right cultural impact, without causing all sorts of political butterflies right away.

Wouldn't this Germany also have to include Bohemia if it's going wider a field? Sure, the national revival was going on, but if we're going with a Grossdeutsches identity/popular movement, you have to figure Czechs are probably going to get swept in - they're in the German Confederation already, after all.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Wouldn't this Germany also have to include Bohemia if it's going wider a field? Sure, the national revival was going on, but if we're going with a Grossdeutsches identity/popular movement, you have to figure Czechs are probably going to get swept in - they're in the German Confederation already, after all.

Lots of outcomes are possible. We have Prussia, which holds lands in the east (a considerable portion of which majority-German) that are not in the Confederation. Then we have A-H with its own problems: a big and distintly non-German part in the east. There were all sorts of proposals at the time, incuding an Austrian one to turn the whole shebang (including Hungary and Eastern Prussia) into a vast multi-ethnic (but German-dominated) empire under a Habsburg Emperor. Naturally, the Prussians weren't inclined to go for that. The Hungarians weren't keen, either-- to say the least. If Pan-German(ic) nationalism is the premise, then there might be focus on separating German and non-German possessions. That is: everything German(ic) would be desired as part of Greater Germany, while all the non-German(ic) bits would be separate entities existing in personal union. Much like @TruthfulPanda, I see this as a greater mess and obstacle than Prussia gaining Denmark. On the other hand, pure fervour can get things done. It has, throughout history.

As far as the actual subject of this thread is concerned, I can imagine two basic scenarios (derived from the same nationalism-related premise) that would make it work:

1. Pan-German(ic) fervour is raised, leading to much broader support for a Greater German solution, and popularising the idea that all Germanic peoples should join together somehow. This leads, over Prussian objections, to a very loose Greater Germany under a Habsburg Emperor. To increase Prussia's share, the eastern parts of Prussia are included, whereas the Czechs in Bohemia are not. (Would the Sudeten areas be split off into a separate province of Austria, as was from time to time suggested? Perhaps, because the ethnikc element of the nationalist ideal is rather prominent in this scenario.) Likewise, the eastern half of Austria-Hungary is also excluded. The Emperor of Greater Germany is simply also the King of Greater Hungary and of Bohemia. This still makes Greater Germany way too Catholic for Prussia's liking. Therefore, tapping into the pan-Germanic sentiment of this ATL, Prussia definitely takes its chance to incorporate Denmark and add more Protestants. This scenario would definitely make all neighbouring powers wary of Greater Germany. Wary in the extreme. There will not be a Franco-Prussian War for obvious reasons, but there may well be an earlier Great War (a.k.a. "Germany-and-countries-in-personal-union-with-it v. Everyone Else"). It also demands a lot of fussing, negotiating, re-organising, settling, compromising, etc. etc. -- which is why I think it's the less likely scenario. It does, however, give us a Prussian-owned Denmark, with plausible reasons for Prussia to want this.

2. Pan-German(ic) fervour is raised, leading to much broader support for a Greater German solution, and popularising the idea that all Germanic peoples should join together somehow. This almost leads to a very loose Greater Germany under a Habsburg Emperor-- but Prussia manages to stave this off for the time being. The idea of pan-Germanism can't easily be killed off, though. Prussia is very worried about being shuffled into an Austrian-led Germany. Religious differences are deliberately played up. When the time comes, Prussia eagerly takes control of Denmark, to gain more Protestants and to orient itself northwards-- away from Austria. Prussia enters into a further treaty of alliance with Sweden-Norway to further this end. Maybe a neo-Hansa is set up? This all has the effect of pushing Bavaria, Baden and Württemberg towards Austria. Eventually, we see an overwhelmingly Protestant North Germany and an overwhelmingly Catholic South Germany emerge. These can be countries or tight alliances, that hardly matters for the scenario. They're not friends. There's no need for a Franco-Prussian War. With Germany divided, a Great War (at least the OTL one) also looks less likely. I consider this both the more realistic and the more interesting scenario for getting Denmark owned by Prussia. (What happens to Austria and its many non-German possessions cannot be accurately predicted without devisig a more detailed sequence of events.)
 
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Skallagrim

Banned
Someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of Prussian politics of the period might be able to come up with some POD to make it work. The fact remains that it goes against the policy objectives that Prussia was pursuing at the time. Changing the King's mind without some real reason seems implausible, and would still see Bismarch object loudly. Changing Bismarck's mind is even more implausible (he designed the OTL policy) and the King would still react with (basically) "Uh, Chancellor? Did you hit your head against a cupboard this morning or something?" Changing both their minds miraculously seems outright impossible, and even if it happened, they'd face opposition over the matter.

They'd need a good reason to go against everything they were planning long in advance. My reason is pretty drastic, admit. A more subtle one may exist, but I'm not aware of it. I'd love to hear from the experts on this!
 
He offered to join the German Confederation, which was not run by Prussia.

it's successor would soon be run by Prussia and he knew it.

The Danes would not happy to be forced into German confederation. The general population would be furious.

Nah, I think they were too depressed at the loss in the war to be furious.

Changing Bismarck's mind is even more implausible (he designed the OTL policy) and the King would still react with (basically) "Uh, Chancellor? Did you hit your head against a cupboard this morning or something?" Changing both their minds miraculously seems outright impossible, and even if it happened, they'd face opposition over the matter.

Forget changing Bismarck's mind. Let's assume that stays the same

But remember he was falling out of favor by the Fanco-Prussian war prelude and only it's victory made him liked by his king once again.
 
The Kaiserreich was a loose federation. What "German standards"?
Common currency.
Customs union.
Educated people probably knew German anyway - so German becoming a compulsory subject in secondary schools will probably be minimal change versus the status quo ante.
Army trained to same doctrine.
Officers expected to know German (uniforms were different up to 1905, maybe Denmark stays with own pattern longer).

"German Faroes, Iceland and Greenland - now that indeed is interesting :)
I missed this issue completely.
And there are the now "German Virgin Islands" ... a dagger pointed at America's heart, I'd wager ...
To win acceptance from other regional powers, and probably Britain as well, I think in the event of Denmark joining Germany we'd see Faroes, Iceland, and Greenland given over to another/other power(s). Given that Norway was Swedish at the time but was still a separate country, we could see Norway receiving those lands, as they would later IOTL assert a claim to Greenland. We might even see Britain, Russia, Austria, and France force upon Germany (and Sweden) the following proposition- OK, Denmark can have what it wants and join Germany. But then they have to give Iceland, Faroes, and Greenland to Norway which Sweden will give independence. In return Germany pays Sweden "some amount of money" and some economic concessions, and maybe the Danish West Indies goes to Sweden despite Sweden really not wanting it (but the Great Powers force this because really, who wants a united Germany to have Caribbean/Atlantic naval bases... no one I say). Not so out of character for Sweden to accept the loss of territory for money, they were given Guadeloupe during the Napoleonic Wars but gave it back to France in return for the "Guadeloupe Fund" which the Crown Prince used to pay off the Swedish national debt and for infrastructure improvements. Also the Swedish owned St Barthelemy in the Caribbean until 1878, it's possible we could have a POD that includes the Swedish having kept this island, or we could have as part of the French incentive to get Sweden to give up Norway, the French give St Barthelemy back to the Swedish.

What the great powers get out of this- let's assume Denmark REALLY REALLY wants to join Germany; Germany is willing. No one is going to go to war over Germany getting Denmark. But no one is going to want Germany to get Denmark's colonies; even the US at this point will have vocal opposition with calls to purchase the islands, and even calls for seizing by force the Danish West Indies however ill advised or impractical this may be. So, we have Britain, France, Netherlands, Austria, and Russia decide before the union becomes a fait accompli that they first make "war talk" and force Germany to the table. With or without Sweden there, one can see Russia and others happy to dismember the union of Sweden and Norway; giving Norway what for her are relatively useless colonies that would be more useful for Germany; denying Germany potential bases that threaten the UK's position at Scapa Flow and communication with Canada (limits on Norway's potential to build domestic military bases or negotiate to allow foreign bases there would be demanded by the UK as well). The Great Powers are able to allow Germany to unify with Denmark while portraying themselves internationally as still having the upper hand over a rising Germany; Sweden gets monetary compensation to be used on industrialization and modernization of infrastructure and military to counter a rising Germany and Russia; Russia conversely may think Sweden will be weaker after this and will need to turn to Russia in the future if there are disputes with Germany (especially if Germany doesn't respect the Copenhagen Convention of 1857). The alternatives to the Great Powers putting forth such a proposal could be Germany and Denmark going through the unification regardless and the Great Powers either having to do a military intervention (which they probably arent willing to do anyways) or accept Germany taking Denmark with her colonies; which could lead to the US trying something stupid like seizing the Danish West Indies (and maybe trying Greenland as well???) which could be disasterous (or might succeed... Germany backed down in 1903 regarding Venezuela), the British might rather think ahead and feel a Swedish West Indies is better than the US taking it by force.
 
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